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30 kph is on the low end of the speed. Route 196 averages 33km/h, and the busway is probably the fastest part of the trip.

I've just tried TTC's trip planner for 196. The forecast travel time is 16 min from Downsview to York U (at 8 am), 14 min from York U to Downsview (at 4 pm). In both cases, it takes the shortest rote (without detour on Sentinel).

The route length is about 7 km (3 1/2 major concessions x 2 km each).

7 km / (15 min / 60 min) = 28 kph.
 
And as I said, local bus service would still continue along Finch for local trips, so no one would lose their bus service or stop. And if one couldn't manage the 400m walk up to the hydro corridor (fun fact: the regional bus terminal at Finch is located in the hydro corridor - thus thousands of people everyday walk from there down to the Finch subway), local north-south buses would carry them there. And being a whole new bus route, it would mean that those north of the hydro corridor would be even closer to a frequent and fast bus, therefore accessibility to transit would increase rather than decrease.

The Finch subway platforms are located north of Finch as well. From the regional bus terminal, there are stairs and elevator to the tunnel, and then a 150m walk to the northern end of the subway platform. In contrast, a walk to a busway stop from Finch could be as long as 500 or 700 m, if people first have to walk east or west to a suitable N-S street or walkway. Hydro corridor is not accessible just from any point on Finch proper.

If you retain a reasonably frequent mixed-traffic bus service on Finch in parallel with the hydro corridor, then yes, accessibility will increase rather than decrease. But this configuration will have higher operation costs off-peak (have to run both routes at a decent frequency, even though the passengers could comfortably fit in one), for a minor reduction in travel time.

Anyways, seeing as we should stop holding our breath for either of these projects to be completed, why not reintroduce the Finch bus which goes down Dufferin to meet the Spadina line? Would be even more efficient now that the subway goes up to Sheppard, and that there are bus lanes on Dufferin as well.

That sounds like a good idea; no implementation costs, easily reversible if unsuccessful, and does not block any other improvements.
 
I've just tried TTC's trip planner for 196. The forecast travel time is 16 min from Downsview to York U (at 8 am), 14 min from York U to Downsview (at 4 pm). In both cases, it takes the shortest rote (without detour on Sentinel).

The route length is about 7 km (3 1/2 major concessions x 2 km each).

7 km / (15 min / 60 min) = 28 kph.

I used last years schedule. It turns out this year they slowed it down. My mistake.
 
New York - 800m
Paris - 700m
Berlin - 850m
Philadelphia - 750m
Milan - 900m
Barcelona - 750m
Brussels - 650m
Vienna - 750m
Frankfurt - 700m
Rome - 800m
Lisbon - 850m
Oslo - 850m
Buenos Aires - 750m

(your same calculation, rounded to the nearest 50m)

If we ignore that many of these systems offer express lines, systems, and commuter rail, overall you are still looking at about a kilometer average between stops. I'll admit I should not have said that 2km was a "cushy medium," as it is actually more in the high end, but 1km is definitely a moderate goal for rapid transit stop spacing.

An interesting analysis worth reading:

comments of the week: ideal stop spacing is 400m?

Zoltán:

My experiences in Leeds and Baltimore confirm the validity of a 400m standard for stop spacing. Rarely do you get to experiment with reducing or increasing stop spacing, but we can look at the sum of the experience of the two cities.

In Leeds, there have been a number of routes, normally small single-deck buses running every 30-60 minutes, that have stopped frequently and taken local roads to penetrate various neighbourhoods better than the frequent, relatively fast buses on the main arterials.

These have pretty much all disappeared with time, because people always proved willing to walk about 400m to the main arterials, which is about the furthest you're ever expected to. My experience of occasionally catching one of the slower local routes is that I would be the only passenger.

So, this demonstrates that people really are willing to walk to speed and frequency.


Meanwhile, in Baltimore, buses do stick to the main arterials. But they stop at every corner, just like the streetcars before them, which in Baltimore is about every 120 metres. And hell, are they slow - from Catonsville, MD to downtown Baltimore, I frequently spent 50 minutes to an hour to travel 8 miles that can be driven in about 20 minutes.

What's more, it's an uncomfortable ride, because the bus pulls violently to the corner at every corner, to keep the hell out of the way of traffic. And that's actually the problem with the frequent stops in Baltimore - while boarding time is a bit more complicated (though there's a fixed element to people getting up and making their way out of the bus, and people waiting for the driver's nod to start boarding), you can basically multiply the time spent waiting to pull out back into traffic by the number of stops.

--

So what you have is a slow service, and by that virtue, a less frequent service, because one bus can make fewer trips. So, if people will walk to speed and frequency where delivered by different routes, then we can assume that people will also walk to speed and frequency on existing routes when that's achieved by means of widely spaced stops.


In thinking about this sexless but profoundly consequential issue, you may want to refer back to this post, which clarifies the concepts of coverage gaps and duplicate coverage areas. (See that post for more explanation of this figure.)

Balancing these two considerations is the essence of the stop spacing task. Closer stop spacing means smaller coverage gaps but more wasteful duplication of coverage area. So a lot depends on the local land use. If there's more stuff along the transit corridor than in the coverage gaps, that argues for pushing stops wider.

The European HiTrans guides suggest 600m for stop spacing in busy areas where demand is high and local access is the intent. In general, Europeans and Australians are willing to go wider than North Americans in a similar setting.

So why on earth does any transit agency that aims to compete with cars put stops as close as 120m?? Well, these things creep up on you. If ridership is so low that you won't be stopping at every stop anyway, close spacing doesn't present much of a problem. But once ridership reaches the level where you're stopping at every stop, close spacing requires you to stop more, and thus run more slowly, to serve the same number of people.

On the tradition of very-close North American spacing, John offered an interesting speculation:

--

"But right now, a lot of transit (in North America especially) seems designed to compete with walking, rather than with the car. Do we have the balance right?"

I think the balance is off, and I think it's largely a legacy of the streetcar era, when transit only needed to be faster than walking to draw a huge mode share. In that situation, minimizing walking distance made sense. Then the competition changed when cars came along and average trip distances increased. The streetcars were removed, but nobody ever bothered to change the stop spacing. Now transit isn't time-competitive, and in most cities it serves only the transit-dependent and niche markets like express routes to the CBD.


--

Is very close stop spacing on North American bus systems really so old that it predates the car, and therefore reflects the competitive situation between transit and its alternatives as it was around 1910? That would be some sort of record for failure to adapt: a habit that has survived for an entire century after its obsolescence.

Obviously, too, many North American services aren't trying to compete with the car; they're social services intended only for the transit dependent, and in those cases travel time is presumed to travel less. But be careful about taking that attitude too far.

http://www.humantransit.org/2011/04/comments-of-the-week-ideal-stop-spacing-is-400m.html
 
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If we ignore that many of these systems offer express lines, systems, and commuter rail, overall you are still looking at about a kilometer average between stops. I'll admit I should not have said that 2km was a "cushy medium," as it is actually more in the high end, but 1km is definitely a moderate goal for rapid transit stop spacing.


Ignore express lines, and commuter rail? What makes you think the poster included express and commuter rail in his list? Did you include commuter rail in your list? Out of that list, only New York has an extensive express local network, Philadelphia has 4 tracks in a few spots.
That article is interesting, it pretty much validates what me, and TM are saying. Rapid transit with a stop spacing between 460m-850m will still offer fast reliable service, you do not need the fastest speed to get people out of their cars. People are willing to walk up to 400m to a station, they are not willing to walk to a station that can be up to 1km away, and with your suggestion of 1 -2km spacing, that is what people are going to have to endure. There is a trade-off when you place stations at such a wide spacing, and it's accessibilty, and convenience. That article seems to be more concerned that transit in North America is slow because the spacing is 120m for many systems, and I do not know anyone who would advocate 120m stop spacing. 120m spacing is far too close, heck 250m is too close. But that is not a justification for 1 -2km spacingon subway lines. 1-2km spacing is appropriate for commuter rail, not subways or LRT, except in some cases.
 
I am very inclined to think that this will be in the hydro corridor as an extension to the current busway in the hydro corridor, and dip onto finch in the middle of the road between dufferin and Bathurst, then dip back onto the hydro corridor.

It'll give the politicians the ability to say "hey see, we did something" and it will be at a very small cost to the city. It'll actually be somethign the city would be able to afford relatively easy I would imagine.
 
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I am very inclined to think that this will be in the hydro corridor as an extension to the current busway in the hydro corridor, and dip onto finch in the middle of the road between dufferin and Bathurst, then dip back onto the hydro corridor.

Have you or anyone else bothered to ask Hydro whether they'd be willing to allow the city to build such a busway on their ROW? The city has no jurisdiction over that provincial body.

One of the reasons they may have be willing to go along with the York U busway is that it is only to be a short term measure until the opening of the subway extension.
 
Have you or anyone else bothered to ask Hydro whether they'd be willing to allow the city to build such a busway on their ROW? The city has no jurisdiction over that provincial body.

One of the reasons they may have be willing to go along with the York U busway is that it is only to be a short term measure until the opening of the subway extension.


I think it is fairly obvious that my comment was purely my own personal opinion meant to stimulate the discussion in this thread.

Whether Hydro is willing ot allow the construction of a busway on their land or not is a valid question, and I'm sure the powers that be, would be able to come up with a fairly easy compromise on the matter. There have been numerous talks of transit on the hydro corridor stemming from both provincial and municipal projects, so it's not a non-starter, touting that Hydro retains control of the land.

However you may correct when you say one of the conditions for the York U busway were that it was a short term measure. Although I find this fairly hard to believe since they are currently building a bike/walk path through the whole corridor...So i find it very difficult to believe that Hydro would allow pedestrians and cyclists to use the hydro corridor, and not public transit.
 
Ignore express lines, and commuter rail? What makes you think the poster included express and commuter rail in his list? Did you include commuter rail in your list? Out of that list, only New York has an extensive express local network, Philadelphia has 4 tracks in a few spots.
That article is interesting, it pretty much validates what me, and TM are saying. Rapid transit with a stop spacing between 460m-850m will still offer fast reliable service, you do not need the fastest speed to get people out of their cars. People are willing to walk up to 400m to a station, they are not willing to walk to a station that can be up to 1km away, and with your suggestion of 1 -2km spacing, that is what people are going to have to endure. There is a trade-off when you place stations at such a wide spacing, and it's accessibilty, and convenience. That article seems to be more concerned that transit in North America is slow because the spacing is 120m for many systems, and I do not know anyone who would advocate 120m stop spacing. 120m spacing is far too close, heck 250m is too close. But that is not a justification for 1 -2km spacingon subway lines. 1-2km spacing is appropriate for commuter rail, not subways or LRT, except in some cases.

I used Wikipedia for my sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metro_systems), and I did not include express metros or commuter rail systems. I presume Thoughtless Miscreant used the same source. I even avoided systems which would have unfairly skewed the numbers to my advantage, such as San Francisco's BART (3.9km) and Hong Kong (2.2km) as they are arguably express metros. And without getting into every city on that list, I know that Paris and Berlin DO have express metros with the RER and S-Bahn.

You may feel that 1km is too far apart for rapid transit stations, but as I said earlier, systems around the world seem to disagree. Of the list of systems selected for this exercise, 10/23 are within 200m of a 1km interstation. 7 are under 800m (with the lowest being 650m), and 6 being above 1.2km (with the highest at 2.0km).

And for the record, Mr. Walker recommends a 400m stop spacing for local transit and a 1km stop spacing for rapid transit as people tend to walk further or transfer from local service to faster services (source: http://www.humantransit.org/2010/11/san-francisco-a-rational-stop-spacing-plan.html).
 
I even avoided systems which would have unfairly skewed the numbers to my advantage, such as San Francisco's BART (3.9km) and Hong Kong (2.2km) as they are arguably express metros. [...]
You may feel that 1km is too far apart for rapid transit stations, but as I said earlier, systems around the world seem to disagree. Of the list of systems selected for this exercise, 10/23 are within 200m of a 1km interstation. 7 are under 800m (with the lowest being 650m), and 6 being above 1.2km (with the highest at 2.0km).
MTR is hardly an "express metro". The reason its number is skewed is because three of the lines are essentially long distance commuter rails. If you look only at the 4 urban lines (Island, Kwun Tong, Tsuen Wan and TKO), the station spacing drops to the much more reasonable 1.2 km. And this number is still skewed, because the longest stretches on even these lines, and especially for the long distance lines, are there not because the planners felt people can walk a couple hundred metres more, but because they're passing through mountains, under/over harbours, or through tracts of farms and wilderness.

As for the other systems that you cherry-picked:

London - 1.5km
Chicago - 1.2km
Washington - 2.0km
Vancouver - 1.5km
Boston - 1.2km
Moscow - 1.7km
Osaka - 1.4km
Mexico - 1.0km
Seoul - 1.1km
Miami - 1.7km

Other than some obvious errors (Osaka's is completely off, with 122 stations over 130 km the average spacing should be 1.1 km), you also really have to dig deeper for the numbers to make any sense. Take London for example. Putting back the transfer stations (with a system like the Tube with somewhere like 100 overlapping stations, not taking them into account doesn't skew the numbers "slightly", it skews the numbers significantly) and filling in the stretches of the Metropolitan and Piccadilly lines that are essentially express services for other lines (Jubilee and District) they share tracks with, the average is back down to 1.2 km. And the main reason it's that high and not something like 6-800 m? Because the outer stretches of lines like Metropolitan and Central have stations 4-6 km apart, but again not because riders are expected to walk a bit farther or because there are parallel services, but because at 25-40 km away from Central London (the same distance from downtown to northern Richmond Hill or Aurora), the lines are linking villages that are separated by farms and fields with trains running every 10-20 min.

As for the remaining North American systems that have large station spacings, all of them have lower ridership, either absolute or per distance (and usually very significantly so) than Toronto, with the outer stretches going through vast tracts of suburban wasteland. Probably not something that we'd want to aspire to.
(the one outside NA, Moscow, being the possible exception, but I'm not familiar enough with that system to know what idiosyncrasies it has).
 
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