[Neutrino]

Imagine how much BRT we could build for the cost of SSE...

 

[rbt]

Finch LRT was on nobody's radar till David Miller made it a "priority" ....

I wouldn't say nobody's; although probably not the public.

While Lastman was mayor, a fellow from the transportation department (not the TTC) gave Rocker Riders an informal presentation which highlighted streets which were not currently at capacity but which were expected to be by 2021. Finch was on that relatively short list (though Sheppard was not IIRC).

His recommendations, which he admitted others in his department weren't fond of (though they also didn't have alternative solutions), was to increase street capacity through significant improvements in transit. He didn't give a mode but the expected capacity required was either oversized BRT or small LRT.

He didn't present any solutions for downtown because it was already so bad that they didn't think it could get any more congested.


I think Gord Perks (long before becoming councillor) brought him in as a speaker.

 

[BurlOak]

The money saved could easily extend the system further south to a potential Woodbine RER station and build the station so people getting downtown or to the airport would get there much faster.

A problem was that Transit City appears to have been borne without consideration to other modes of transit. Another example, Eglinton on street at Leslie did not consider a DRL. When DRL was conceived, the UPE was a direct Pearson to Union train for business travelers and not an actual commuter line. Finch very well could have gone to Humber, Woodbine (Mall, Track and RER Station) and Pearson. Multiple bus routes could periodically use the BRT route (i.e. Weston bus using it to get to GO station on Bolton line).

The savings would also be enough to probably extend the system further east to Finch station on the Yonge line as well.

That BRT was already 1/3 built - from Keele to Dufferin.

Yes, LRT is more comfortable but the money saved would make the line far more effective and get Woodbine a RER station which is very important because people from Woodbine area going to downtown/subways will find this LRT small improvement in speed than what they have now. This LRT is improved transit but by no definition is it rapid.

Similar to Sheppard and Eglinton (Scarborough portion). People who take local transit prefer buses due to their higher frequencies and closer stop spacings - on a 10 to 15 minute trip, the benefits of LRT that are 5km/hr faster are easily offset by these factors. What people really wanted was improved medium distance travel (10 to 20 km). For this, these LRT 's provide minimal benefit for relatively big cost - they are the worst of both worlds.

 

[JSF-1]

Finch LRT was on nobody's radar till David Miller made it a "priority"

I wouldn't say that. the idea of an LRT along the northern stretch of the City dates back to 1963 as a sort of half loop line running from Kipling to Kennedy via the Finch Hydro Corridor. It then cropped up again in the late 70's as the Etobicoke RT. It fell off the radar after the ERT was unceremoniously dropped; however given the ridership of the Finch West bus I think it was inevitable that the idea would crop up again for a third time. Difference is we are actually building it now.

EDIT* It was also planned to be a GO Line under the GO ALRT scheme. Seems pretty amazing we had essentially 3 decades of planning transit around the Finch area, and then we suddenly stopped.

 

[ssiguy2]

It seems the only reason Finch is getting LRT is because it/s a hang over from Miller's 'LRT or nothing' mantra. I don't know who knew less about Transit...…..Ford or Miller. Whether it be LRT or subways, there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all transit system which is an notion that neither Ford nor Miller could get their heads around.

They should cancel the Finch LRT but continue with a BRT system with the exact same configuration. It wouldn't need any new reviews or studies just a change from a train to a bus and save at least half a billion and years of disruptive construction. The Finch LRT is another example of how politics, myopia, poor transit planning, and a lack of financial prudence that was endemic at Metrolinx. I don't think a Ford appointed Metrolinx can do any worse.

 

[crs1026]

I can agree that Finch LRT, as currently packaged, is money being spent inefficiently with a flawed rationale - but I disagree with the premise that we don’t need higher order transit running across the top of the city anywhere north of Eglinton. The mistake with the current design is the premise is that all that’s needed is a tie in to TYSSE. We are building a stub (again) instead of a corridor.

The solution for the Finch LRT is - extend it further east so that it becomes that through corridor, with velocity greater than bus making trips across the top of the city more marketable.

There are two options - one is to bend it down to Sheppard and merge it with the existing subway, the other is just to keep building east on Finch and accept some competitive reality.

I just came back from over the pond, and was impressed both by Manchester’s LRT (high platform) and by Dublin’s DART (more of a subway profile carriage, but with low profile pantograph). You won’t convince me that converting Sheppard subway to an LRT isn’t possible.

- Paul

 

[BurlOak]

It seems the only reason Finch is getting LRT is because it/s a hang over from Miller's 'LRT or nothing' mantra

We will get the Finch LRT because the Liberals signed the contract 2 days before the writ period began, and the cancellation would be too costly. Only option would be to get contractor to build BRT instead of LRT. You don't get great value for money negotiating in this position though. This clearly violates the spirit of the rule that governments shouldn't bind future governments to expenses and that during the writ period the government should not introduce new spending beyond routine activities. I wonder if the PC's will have to bring in some new rule to prevent this in the future.

Some might compare this to Mulroney ordering the EH-101 helicopter "just" before he was defeated. He actually signed the deal on October 8, 1992. The election was October 25, 1993. This means it was signed over a year before the change in government.

 

[Rainforest]

LRT has higher capacity limit than BRT (even with artic buses), I guess that's the reason LRT got selected for Finch West.

One can argue that since BRT is cheaper, more coverage can be achieved with BRT than with LRT for the same price. But on the other hand, if the demand eventually exceeds the BRT capacity, then it will have to be upgraded to LRT and the street will have to be ripped up again. In that sense, LRT is more future-proof.

Cancelling Finch West or replacing it with BRT wouldn't save much money for subways, even if it was done before the contract signing.

In short, I think LRT is right-sized for Finch.

 

[Rainforest]

I can agree that Finch LRT, as currently packaged, is money being spent inefficiently with a flawed rationale - but I disagree with the premise that we don’t need higher order transit running across the top of the city anywhere north of Eglinton. The mistake with the current design is the premise is that all that’s needed is a tie in to TYSSE. We are building a stub (again) instead of a corridor.

The solution for the Finch LRT is - extend it further east so that it becomes that through corridor, with velocity greater than bus making trips across the top of the city more marketable.

There are two options - one is to bend it down to Sheppard and merge it with the existing subway, the other is just to keep building east on Finch and accept some competitive reality.

I just came back from over the pond, and was impressed both by Manchester’s LRT (high platform) and by Dublin’s DART (more of a subway profile carriage, but with low profile pantograph). You won’t convince me that converting Sheppard subway to an LRT isn’t possible.

- Paul

I'd rather extend it further east along Finch. First to Yonge, then into Scarborough and possibly to Malvern. That way, it will support the existing travel patterns,. while making them somewhat faster.

Swinging the line down to Sheppard would conflict with some of the existing patterns. For example if you take the Finch West route to Yonge and then travel up north, a line that swings south to Sheppard will make your trip a bit longer.

Converting Sheppard Subway to a low-floor LRT isn't impossible, but it would be costly and hardly worth the cost. If it is to be converted, I'd rather go with a high-floor, wide stop-spaced LRT, and make it a route on its own, separate from Finch. In the east, the destinations are multiple (STC, Centennial Progress Campus, Malvern, UTSC).

In the west, the extension of Sheppard line could either connect to the subway at Sheppard West and stop there, or it could swing south and continue along Wilson, towards the Etobicoke North subway station and then Pearson. (And yes, the latter option could conflict with the existing travel pattern along Wilson, but a continuous Wilson rapid transit would be very hard to build anyway, because of hills near Yonge.)

 

[ssiguy2]

A BRT would be just as fast but with the money saved could be extended to Finch station and south to meet up with Woodbine RER station which could also be built with the money saved. The contract is signed but it is very possible to change the contract for BRT with RER and BRT expansions and provide the current contractor with the same amount of contract dollars. Metrolinx could also make it clear on the side that it`s flexibility would not go unnoticed for future contracts.

Woodbine should have a RER/UPX station and an extended BRT south and east it would provide a fast connection to RER/ UPX for those going to the airport and downtown and the BRT further east would provide not only service to York U and Spadina but also to Finch station for those going along the Yonge line or further north into York Region.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It seems the only reason Finch is getting LRT is because it/s a hang over from Miller's 'LRT or nothing' mantra

Transit City proposed six different BRT routes, in addition to the bus service improvements outlined in the Transit City Bus Plan. Only one of the BRT routes were completed.

 

[Neutrino]

Transit City proposed six different BRT routes, in addition to the bus service improvements outlined in the Transit City Bus Plan. Only one of the BRT routes were completed.

Which BRT route was that?

 

[Leo_Chan]

Which BRT route was that?

Finch Hydro Corridor?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Which BRT route was that?

York University Busway.

 

[Hopkins123]

I wouldn't say that. the idea of an LRT along the northern stretch of the City dates back to 1963 as a sort of half loop line running from Kipling to Kennedy via the Finch Hydro Corridor. It then cropped up again in the late 70's as the Etobicoke RT. It fell off the radar after the ERT was unceremoniously dropped; however given the ridership of the Finch West bus I think it was inevitable that the idea would crop up again for a third time. Difference is we are actually building it now.

EDIT* It was also planned to be a GO Line under the GO ALRT scheme. Seems pretty amazing we had essentially 3 decades of planning transit around the Finch area, and then we suddenly stopped.

GO ALRT was far different than what's being proposed here with the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT project. It was not to be disjointed, but cross-regional. Also it presupposes there'd be no Sheppard subway.

Like what's been echoed here the FWLRT is a stub line in the making for only a section of a 17 km long bus route . It does nothing for anyone residing west of Highway 27 or east of Keele whom depend on the 36 bus today.

I can agree that Finch LRT, as currently packaged, is money being spent inefficiently with a flawed rationale - but I disagree with the premise that we don’t need higher order transit running across the top of the city anywhere north of Eglinton. The mistake with the current design is the premise is that all that’s needed is a tie in to TYSSE. We are building a stub (again) instead of a corridor.

The solution for the Finch LRT is - extend it further east so that it becomes that through corridor, with velocity greater than bus making trips across the top of the city more marketable.

There are two options - one is to bend it down to Sheppard and merge it with the existing subway, the other is just to keep building east on Finch and accept some competitive reality.

I just came back from over the pond, and was impressed both by Manchester’s LRT (high platform) and by Dublin’s DART (more of a subway profile carriage, but with low profile pantograph). You won’t convince me that converting Sheppard subway to an LRT isn’t possible.

- Paul

We do need higher order transit across the top of the City, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that we don't abandon the higher order that already exists along Sheppard Avenue in the process of doing so. All the traffic from Etobicoke and Scarborough could funnel into that line if only we'd invest in extending it out to proper terminal points west of Yonge and east of Don Mills. Are any of you aware that the Turdeau gov't took the $333 million the previous Harper earmarked for Sheppard subway expansion and gave it towards FWLRT? All I am saying is that if gov'ts of the day are allowed to abandon the policies of prior gov'ts, FWLRT is not Teflon when it's demonstrative that the Finch corridor though crowded at some junctures would largely fail to meet the ridership standards warranted to justify LRT.