Hopkins123
Senior Member
Loop lines are a logistical nightmare from what I've heard. Best to stay way from such a trend.
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- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
Amare
Senior Member
There are tons of systems around the world that operate subway lines much longer than the Yonge-University line. The issue we have in Toronto, is that the TTC is incapable of operating any route that is long (whether that be bus, streetcar, or subway) due to their pathetic line management and the general incompetence of management overall.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
With or without ATC (automatic train control)? Our Line 1 should have ATC in a couple of years. Some of the newer metro/subway lines already have them.
Amare
Senior Member
^There are longer lines that operate both with and without ATC around the world.
Theoretically, ATC should resolve most of the line management issues since it would be taken right out of line management's hands, but knowing the TTC they will probably find a way to screw up ATC with some new kind of operational procedure.
Theoretically, ATC should resolve most of the line management issues since it would be taken right out of line management's hands, but knowing the TTC they will probably find a way to screw up ATC with some new kind of operational procedure.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
At least that'd give Sheppard West Extension another reason.
Also because the TTC only have one yard (excluding storage tracks) per line.
Steve X
Senior Member
Finch LRVs won't have ATO equipment. Even if the two lines connect, they'll never run it as one line. It's just a waste to have equipment on lines that don't need them.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
While true, every example I can think of has special circumstances that enable it to work properly despite being insanely long:
Toei Ōedo Line (41km): A loop line with a spur that sees fairly little service when compared to the central section
London Metropolitan Line (67km): A line with very low frequencies, with the fact that many sections of the line see service no more often than every half an hour.
MTA A Train (52km): An express train with few stops, as well as plenty of built in shortturns
Beijing Line 10 (57km): A loop line with platform screen doors to prevent delays and with few if any major bends (like the union station bend). The line also has pretty consistent ridership regardless of where you are along it
Washington metro lines (45+km): Very few stations and low frequencies, operates more like a suburban rapid rail service than a subway.
Chicago Blue Line (43km): Very low frequencies compared to the Yonge line.
Line one in our city is arguably a lot different than those in most other cities because ridership is distributed extremely unevenly thought the line. The spadina section is barely used (compared to the Yonge side, it still gets really high ridership by North American standards), the University line is fairly well used, the Downtown Yonge subway is extremely overcrowded and under built, the transfer at Bloor Yonge causes a lot of issues with travel, the subway can be a nightmare to get on between BY and SY, North of that, it is about as well used as the Bloor line. The line also is proposed to see something like 15km worth fo extensions, bringing its length over 50 km. With such variability in operation needs, it makes no sense to try and continue to run the line as is, especially since there's no way to short-turn trains at St George or Union.
JSF-1
Active Member
Just want to add onto you're point here, to say that it should also be known that what we call ATC, and what Japan calls ATC are two different things. Here we lump ATC and ATO togeather while in Japan they are treated as two separate entities. ATO is obviously the train drives itself, while ATC is a combination signal/speed limit system and comes in a veriaty of proprietary forms. From a subway perspective all lines in Tokyo run ATC, but only 3 run ATO; those being the Toei Oedo Line, and Tokyo Metro Fukutoshin, Namboku lines, as well as the Kita-Ayase branch of the Chiyoda Line. In those cases all operators are required to perform at least 1 manual trip each direction per day to ensure they don't forget how to operate the train and the line in the event they need to take over.
Picture is just what your average Japanese ATC system looks like.
thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
Great examples of this are Line 1, 504A/504B spilt, and 501. All great examples to prove your point. It seems TTC is allergic to managing long lines..
thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
The University and Yonge sides are well used on Line 1, as well as
Spadina from Spadina Station to Sheppard West, the TYSSE is the "trick part" of Line 1 in terms of ridership, some parts of it are well used, others, not so much. Ah, I got so off-topic..
ADRM
Senior Member
Toronto Council’s problems are often due to councillors catering to single occupancy vehicle drivers above and to the detriment of all others, not to people calling them out on that obvious and unfortunate fact.
crs1026
Superstar
Line 1 would work better if it had been designed as a long line. Instead, it was designed as a short line, and the crossovers and layover tracks that a long line needs weren’t included.
In the downtown stretch, it would be disastrous to try and run it on a “dump the passengers and turn back” basis during delays. There are not enough 3 track sections to effectively stow disabled trains or gap-fillers. Perhaps some of this ought to be a precondition to any further lengthening of the line, eg before Richmond Hill.
“Stop and stay” is probably the best the TTC can manage. Not defending TTC’s performance on the surface operation, but it may not be possible underground.
- Paul
In the downtown stretch, it would be disastrous to try and run it on a “dump the passengers and turn back” basis during delays. There are not enough 3 track sections to effectively stow disabled trains or gap-fillers. Perhaps some of this ought to be a precondition to any further lengthening of the line, eg before Richmond Hill.
“Stop and stay” is probably the best the TTC can manage. Not defending TTC’s performance on the surface operation, but it may not be possible underground.
- Paul
Neutrino
Senior Member
Missing the point, but sure.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Not necessarily. Then Spadina line ridership per kilometer ratio (~11K PPD) between Wilson Stations and Spadina stations barely rival that to Sheppard Ridership (~9.5K PPD), and on top of it, the TYSSE is most definitely going to reduce Sheppard West and probably Wilson and Yorkdale Ridership (GO Buses).
But you're right, the line itself has way too many ridership zones, some receiving super heavy ridership, while others severely lack. It'd be best to eventually split the line so that the Yonge side can have platform extensions and other special features (ATO) that will enable it to run far more frequently and with higher capacities in the future. Despite the importance of the Relief line, it may not be enough come 40+ years from now, especially if the population keeps exploding like it has been.
thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
Agree 100%. Council countines to support gridlock and congestion by catering to single occupancy vehicles. And, your right, when people do call them out for said comment, they likely just won't listen.