innsertnamehere
Superstar
I feel this is justified in its return..
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- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
DonValleyRainbow
Senior Member
This is fantastic. The loop at St Clair West is super annoying.
crs1026
Superstar
(Yeah, I'm just repeating myself in different forums)
Given the plan to date, that's quite likely the case.
So, another line that is plunked down in the center of the road without any helpful bells and whistles. Bleah.
I'm not arguing for any particular end-to-end solution, or any particular solution in any particular location, but if this is all we think of when we apply LRT to Toronto, we are not working very hard to make LRT work.
We should be looking at any new line and saying, what points will be most problemmatic? What alternatives would work in these locations? And we should be insisting that something better be done in these locations, which could be any number of things.
I haven't seen a ridership study that says "not only will you get x LRT riders, you will reduce traffic by y". Even with wildly successful new LRT, the roads will remain full, it's a simple function of densification and absolute numbers. We need to plan transit to accommodate the traffic that will continue to exist. Saying "we want LRT and we don't care what happens to automobile traffic" is what lets the big buffoons point to a "war on the car".
- Paul
44 North
Senior Member
Although I agree that on other corridors affordable grade-separation (oftentimes elevated) should be considered. But I honestly don't think west of Keele this should be put to use on Finch. I see the current plan (and the overall general idea of in-median streetcar-style LRT) as being above and beyond what's needed for the corridor.
East of Keele and onto Yonge... that's another story. And I don't see the problem with exploring options to grade-separate - possibly by using the hydro corridor and a new structure over the reservoir. This would give us something similar to the Crosstown where the central portion is fast/reliable/high-capacity, while the outer portion offer the benefits of local-service street rail. But yeah, west of Keele? I don't think we should mess with things, or make them more costly than it ought to be. Not worth it.
smallspy
Senior Member
Okay, I'll bite...
What kinds of helpful bells and whistles are you suggesting that they put in? A fourth lane all of the way? Considering that when they did the EA, they did in fact look at traffic levels both current and future, and ways to mitigate issues before they arose - while keeping within the framework of trying to make it easier/safer for pedestrians at the same time.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
crs1026
Superstar
The EA traffic studies reached the conclusion that traffic is growing on Finch and LRT will contribute to delays and congestion. We should start by accepting that as a reasonably demonstrated fact. That sets a better problem solving focus than if you start from the premise that LRT's are unmixed blessings.
So the first thing might be to be sure we know what the worst choke points will be, per the stidies. (From my read, the CPR bridge is one. The study tends to hide the issues in numbers, and I'm still learning how to decypher all the arrows and statistics in the report. I see plenty of "F" ratings in the data.) The second thing would be to confirm that what they recommended as mitigation is actually going to be implemented. The third question would be how bad will it be even with mitigation. Can we do better?
We all seem to have our preferred solutions, mine would be to look for places where duckunders at major intersections would fix key congestion spots. I say that without any hard data as to how much duckunders cost relative to other things. My rationale is that going under grade frees up roadway space that is helpful at intersections, and removes LRT frequency and timing from traffic control considerations.
Going over grade requires collumns and pillars that may impede this space-clearing, and these affect sight lines which may affect safety at the intersection. Going to side of street ROW doesn't change the issue - although it might simplify duckunder construction, at the tradeoff of messing up turns at intermediate intersections. So I don't go there. But that's just me.
As I said, I'm not advocating any one type of LRT. I'm just looking for pitfalls that could be avoided if we changed the plan a little, even if it raises the cost.
- Paul
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
People are kidding themselves if they believe the FWLRT, or any other transit infrastructure project, will notably reduce the number of cars on the road.
We need to design our city to best serve people in the limited space we have. If we're working on that principle, the FWLRT makes perecext sense, even if it delays cars, as it allows us to move more people more efficiently.
We need to design our city to best serve people in the limited space we have. If we're working on that principle, the FWLRT makes perecext sense, even if it delays cars, as it allows us to move more people more efficiently.
Wrench
New Member
I think you should have a look @ a link supplied by a member BurlOak "intersections" will give you a telling story about how very busy it is in that area E/W of the 400 hwy!
The only other intersection that is busier on it's own would be Dufferin & Finch. There are about 6 to 7 int. 's from Weston rd. To Oakdale dr that reach a saturation point ! Try driving through that area during rush hr!
You must live in central North York.
And you don't venture over that way
44 North
Senior Member
True, I don't live in that area. But my main argument I guess is that if we try fiddling with the process, and making it more complicated and co$tly, the end result will probably be nothing built at all. Which is something many don't want to see. *And for the most part I do commend @BurlOak for bringing up elevated rail (or other affordable, non-tunneled means of grade-separation like trenching or using greenspace). There aren't too many of us on the site who do this, which I think is unfortunate - since there are obvious benefits.
And yeah, I don't doubt the traffic numbers or that this is currently and will end up a traffic nightmare either way. Basically anywhere north of Eglinton I despise driving. I'd rather crawl along King inch by inch behind a streetcar at rush hour than be driving anywhere on Finch, Sheppard, Lawrence, Wilson, Steeles...etc. And another point which was pushed by Mammoliti (I know he's scorned on this site) is industry and trucks. This is also a valid concern as well. One vehicle with one occupant, but with the dimensions and weight of a dozen cars put together. You restrict industry and trucks, you restrict commerce and may very well be putting the public in danger.
So maybe this is worth another look, and there are alternatives that can be pursued. But I don't envision the end result being more being built. Rather nothing built at all (save for BRT lite maybe).
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INTz
Active Member
Howard moscoe has written an article on an interesting idea for mitigating truck traffic. I like like idea but only if it would work well with the existing bike trails and green gardens
http://www.downsviewadvocate.ca/2015/10/a-disaster-waiting-to-happen/
Also I can comment how the BRT along hwy 7 has made the area from woodbine to bayview from a badly congested area to a really congested area. So any consideration for Finch west LRT would be great
http://www.downsviewadvocate.ca/2015/10/a-disaster-waiting-to-happen/
Also I can comment how the BRT along hwy 7 has made the area from woodbine to bayview from a badly congested area to a really congested area. So any consideration for Finch west LRT would be great
Steve X
Senior Member
The York University Busway was opened under David Miller and when Adam Giambrone was chair. What did Howard Moscoe have something to do with the busway? There goes his credibility that he doesn't remember that he wasn't chair in 2009 and wasn't the one at the opening ceremony as chair. OMG Did someone write in his name?
As of now, the busway in parallel with to Finch on the hydro corridor will be used by the 199B Finch Rocket as it seems until the Finch West LRT gets extended. Probably not until the 2030s now. It's true that York U has some plans for the busway on their campus. They wanted to build new buildings and didn't want their land taken away by a busway. They don't even want any buses on their campus after the subway opens but some students will still arrive by bus.
I disagree that moving the oil truckers to the busway will solve the problem. The majority of traffic is caused by cars not trucks. A simple move like ban trucks from using Finch in rush hour would have gotten rid of that problem. It's also true that the LRT would add 5-10min extra time for everyone in a car going across Finch in PM rush hour. The EA said it. Clearly they didn't want to spend a few hundred million more to fix the problem. That section under the 400 will be very problematic. That's why they will remove the right turning ramps at the exit to reduce the number of cars that can make right turns in a minute.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Then there's a question on how long the fuel storage tanks would be staying in the area. What are the long-term plans for that property?
Used to be the same with the Portlands, they moved out.
Used to be the same with the Portlands, they moved out.
nfitz
Superstar
Moscoe was TTC Chair from 2003 to November 2006, including the time that TTC and City Council (under Miller) authorized the busway.
If you look at an old thread on the busway - http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/york-university-brt.3322/ it dates back to February 2006, long before Giambrone became chair.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Starting in 2001, David Collonette and the federal Liberals spent 5 years planning this line. In 2008, the provincial Liberals and Metrolinx took over and developed the plan farther until it finally opened in 2015.
14 years of planning and within a year of opening people realize how big a mistake it was (fares to high for Pearson travel and trains too short to be a good commuter rail).
There is a good chance that shortly after Finch (and Eglinton) open, people will realize that the congestion at the major intersections is very bad - much worse than expected. The question then will be, how to we reverse this mess that was made by the current era of "transit planners".
14 years of planning and within a year of opening people realize how big a mistake it was (fares to high for Pearson travel and trains too short to be a good commuter rail).
There is a good chance that shortly after Finch (and Eglinton) open, people will realize that the congestion at the major intersections is very bad - much worse than expected. The question then will be, how to we reverse this mess that was made by the current era of "transit planners".
nfitz
Superstar
Why would there be any additional congestion? There's already a no-left turn phase at most (if not all) of the lights - and now there'll be an LRT utilizing that phase as well; no need to lengthen. With all the buses off the road, I'd think there'd be less congestion, even if there's no additional ridership.