Railrunner
Active Member
Is no one going to address the last mile problem?
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- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
turbanplanner
Senior Member
No, because then we can't argue about details that won't be relevant for several years.
DirectionNorth
Active Member
Responds by saying that I haven't asked riders (have you?), then comes up with an anecdote that is a whataboutism. Nothing you said actually nullifies my post.
Nice.
Nobody said that safety isn't important. All aspects of the transit experience are important - but bloody-mindedness on one aspect will lead to neglect of another.
If we want to go down this rabbit-hole, my stance is that we need a dramatic change in our mental health/drug abuse/shelter systems - more officers can only turf the insane out of the system, rather than keeping them out in the first place.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
You haven't mentioned what you have learned by speaking to the actual riding public? I also pointed out your original post ignored everything except deaths.
The TTC can't fix the mental health problems society has, they only have control over the number of officers they have and how they respond.
allengeorge
Senior Member
How are you determining that people are staying away from the TTC because of personal safety concerns?
T3G
Senior Member
And how exactly are subways safer than an LRT? Ask any one of the tourists who go to New York that are afraid of the subway because of the way it was in the 1970s and chances are they'll feel a lot more comfortable using surface transit than underground transit.
Underground, it is dark, and there's usually not as many people around as on the street. Waiting on an LRT platform you don't run the risk of plummeting from a great height if you get pushed into the trackway, to say nothing of the lack of a third rail that could electrify you. There are more witnesses in the form of passing pedestrians and cars than under ground. Evacuation procedures are extremely simple in the event of a fire or derailment.
I'm not saying subways shouldn't be built because they're unsafe, but if the argument is that people aren't taking transit because it's unsafe, and therefore we should build subways, that's not anything.
Underground, it is dark, and there's usually not as many people around as on the street. Waiting on an LRT platform you don't run the risk of plummeting from a great height if you get pushed into the trackway, to say nothing of the lack of a third rail that could electrify you. There are more witnesses in the form of passing pedestrians and cars than under ground. Evacuation procedures are extremely simple in the event of a fire or derailment.
I'm not saying subways shouldn't be built because they're unsafe, but if the argument is that people aren't taking transit because it's unsafe, and therefore we should build subways, that's not anything.
crs1026
Superstar
All modes of transit need security, and it’s not what it should be.
Having said that, we need to not dwell on homelessness or mental illness as the worst aspect of the problem. Personally I avoid riding the TTC late at night, not to avoid the homeless or mentally ill…. but to avoid irrational and annoying rowdies who just missed last call. And I avoid riding the Royal York bus at 3PM on weekdays, because the behaviour of crowds of kids coming out of the high school and junior schools can be out of control. And there are more of them than us riders.. I find that the louder a mentally ill person is, the less harmful they are in fact. Actual events of violence or harassment are thankfully rare…. it’s the not-ill quiet drunks who are most likely to become beligerent, or suddenly vomit.
I may be showing my age (I was probably just as troublesome once! ) but we need values in our city that treats transit spaces as much closer to the interior of a public library than the sidewalk outside a seedy bar. (There are homeless people and mentally unstable people in my local public library ever day, they sit quietly and harmlessly and bother no one).
I do draw the line at hygiene. When someone is infested with lice or fleas, or simply hasn’t bathed in a week, they should not be sitting on the bus infesting the rest of us. But I agree - without better social services, just adding security people is a bad strategy, the root problem never goes away.
- Paul
turbanplanner
Senior Member
Show me the cameras at outdoor stops? There are employees at the stations whenever they are opened and that is a bit of a relief as well as a forced path to exit so it's even more likely they'll be caught on camera. More witnesses actually leads to what's called the bystander effect where everyone expects someone else to act.
Safety is 1 of a lot of factors why people don't like LRT's.
Considering physical safety was one of the top priorities in the TTC survey and the number of incidents is up several times even 3 or 4 years ago the jury is out on that one.
I've spoken to dozens of people but I know you will disregard that so there is hard data as well. If you're curious about the number of violent incidents it's dozens of times higher than even 3 or 4 years ago. You can get this data from the city if you'd like. Sexual assault caused 9 delays in 2018 and 151 delays in 2022 so far. (data is till October 31) If you think this isn't affecting peoples behavior I don't know what to tell you.
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APTA-2048
Senior Member
Safety system-wide? Sure. Safety on LRT specifically? That is irrational.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
Safety is just 1 of the reasons people don't like LRT's I can go into detail if you'd like?
APTA-2048
Senior Member
And I’m arguing that safety for LRT specifically is a non issue. To focus and double down on it like you have just shows you’re grasping as straws.
TRONto
Active Member
People I know who prefer not to use to the TTC due to safety issues (largely due to the mentally ill) prefer the surface routes as they don't want to potentially trapped in a station with the assailant.
Cameras/TTC staff do not prevent crime from happening.
On surface transit, the driver is right there. There are people walking and driving if you get out (depending on time/place). It's much safer than running out at Dundas station and being trapped by the assailant you can't get passed.
From the TTCs perspective, they need to add more security and enforce rules. They can control that.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
You want people to take transit? Listen to their issues, I feel like safety is the easiest issue to fix in the short term and the one that’s also gotten most bad the last few years.
Btw I’m happy finch west is an LRT
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Yeah ok. I also "talk to many people who take transit". Safety based exclusively on specific mode does not come up. Safety on the system as a whole? Yes, of course. Your argument that people are more afraid to take a surface route is still ridiculous.
felix123
Active Member
There's a correct superlative for "most bad" (the worst).
Anyway, how do you propose we listen to riders? A Doug Ford-esque cell phone number that the TTC gives out?
The TTC should do better than their current complaints process by exposing case status milestones and letting people vote on issue priority, but that has nothing to do with UT forumers asking riders for their general thoughts on the system.