[Jonny5]

So the final communiqué of the summit has been released.

It essentially says: world governments should do something about defecits, someday.

Thanks for coming everyone!

 

[christiesplits]

The sight of two hundred peaceful, average looking young adults at Queen & Spadina, being rounded up in jail buses after standing outside in the cold pouring rain should certainly lead to some serious questions about the TPS and their management of the event, and in particular, this specific incident.


Reporters from CP24 and the Globe said that most people at the intersection of Queen & Spadina were receiving conflicting reports about what to do and where to go by the police. According to a reporter on CP24, a number of protesters on the east side of Queen were able to proceed through the police line north on Spadina, only to find out that they were soon to be pushed back south by another police line on Spadina moving them back to the intersection, effectively leaving them trapped for two hours under a storm cloud.

Sources from the Globe said that police officers on both lines seemed confused, including police coordinators outside the CIBC who were reportedly bickering over a number of issues


Now, at 9:52, it seems like most of the protesters have been released. This looks absolutely terrible on the part of the police. Who is the one calling the shots, and what exactly is their game plan? The screeds from the protesters seem to have more coherence than the G20 police strategy.

 

[buildup]

Before arguing the point, I'd like to wait a week for some sober auditing because I think the $ billion figure is completely bogus. Seriously, that's like a week of combat operations in Afghanistan. Where did that number come from anyway?

The G20 is worth having even although rioters are making it expensive. For example, 3rd world poverty was a top item on the agenda and forums put countries on the spot to commit.

But it ain't worth a billion. But, as I said, no way it actually cost anything like that. But - lets wait and see.

 

[buildup]

So the final communiqué of the summit has been released.

It essentially says: world governments should do something about defecits, someday.

Thanks for coming everyone!

I'm guessing you have over-simplified the work?

 

[buildup]

The sight of two hundred peaceful, average looking young adults at Queen & Spadina, being rounded up in jail buses after standing outside in the cold pouring rain should certainly lead to some serious questions about the TPS and their management of the event, and in particular, this specific incident.

Reporters from CP24 and the Globe said that most people at the intersection of Queen & Spadina were receiving conflicting reports about what to do and where to go by the police. According to a reporter on CP24, a number of protesters on the east side of Queen were able to proceed through the police line north on Spadina, only to find out that they were soon to be pushed back south by another police line on Spadina moving them back to the intersection, effectively leaving them trapped for two hours under a storm cloud.

Sources from the Globe said that police officers on both lines seemed confused, including police coordinators outside the CIBC who were reportedly bickering over a number of issues

Now, at 9:52, it seems like most of the protesters have been released. This looks absolutely terrible on the part of the police. Who is the one calling the shots, and what exactly is their game plan? The screeds from the protesters seem to have more coherence than the G20 police strategy.

Sometimes when you're trying to nationalize BP, save the seals, end poverty, end capitalism, end the G20, get everyone housed, and so forth...it takes a bit of time, and it might rain, and you could have a late night. Ghandi would tell you.

 

[nfitz]

Does anyone else find what is going on now at Queen and Spadina a little disturbing?

Yes, I find it very disturbing. It's not clear quite why they singled out this group, perhaps they thought there was Black Bloc stuff going on ... though a quick search of people, and then dispersing one by one in different directions should have figured out that. CTV is reporting that many people in that group were just local residents, and people waiting for TTC at Queen & Spadina.

I'm also disturbed by the reports of the conditions, and especially the verbal harassment of those in custody at Eastern that CTV is reporting. If these reports are true and proven, then Bill Blair's career is over.

The whole thing seems most unfortunate. Overall on the street, the police seemed to have handled things relatively well (notwithstanding the loss of control on Saturday). With no real signs of brutality or injuries. But I think we are going to be hearing about the Queen/Spadina events and the situation at Eastern for months, and it's a shame that will likely overshadow what has been a relatively professional operation.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Before arguing the point, I'd like to wait a week for some sober auditing because I think the $ billion figure is completely bogus. Seriously, that's like a week of combat operations in Afghanistan. Where did that number come from anyway?

Parlimentary Budget Office:

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Sites/PBO-DPB/documents/SummitSecurity.pdf

Security cost only - not counting the other costs. Plus the cost of displacement to the local economy as a result of this event, which is probably more substantial than the security cost.

The G20 is worth having even although rioters are making it expensive. For example, 3rd world poverty was a top item on the agenda and forums put countries on the spot to commit.

Like it has been the top item in the summits before, no? And speaking of the issue of 3rd world poverty, here is a piece:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/03/04/tories-cut-back-on-growing-aid-to-the-worlds-poor/

I am sure you'd find it most enlightening. And please, don't tell me that putting anyone on the spot to commit has ever prevented anyone from not trying to fulfill their pledges, at best - to downright ignoring it, to the worst.

Sometimes when you're trying to nationalize BP, save the seals, end poverty, end capitalism, end the G20, get everyone housed, and so forth...it takes a bit of time, and it might rain, and you could have a late night. Ghandi would tell you.

Funny you should quote Ghandi - isn't that exactly what the peaceful protests are about? But of course, I am sure one isn't liable to hurl epithets or tell him to get a job, no?

AoD

 

[buildup]

I will look at the security costs, thanks.

My comment about Ghandi meant he didn't start whining after 2 hours in the rain.

Re: Poverty - a committment is better than no committment. Sometimes govts have trouble geting you and i to cough up.

 

[nfitz]

In terms of the impact to the economy, don't forget to remember how much extra tourism this will bring Toronto!

Perhaps they could do a police car marshmallow roast every weekend in Dundas Square.

By the way, I now know the length of a burning police car. About 5 kilometres. I was sitting in BMO field near the top of the west stands watching the smoke risking from the Queen/Spadina area around 8 pm. By the time the smoke stopped billiowing upward, the cloud of smoke seemed to stretch about 5 km out into the lake in the islands.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Oh on the matter of the cost of vandalism, don't forget:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/815330--ottawa-won-t-cover-g20-protest-related-damage

AoD

 

[tkip]

Confusion.....

I hadn't heard about the incident at Queen and Spadina. I don't know why they would target and harass residents going about their business or waiting for a streetcar. Going to assume that we don't have all the details yet.

And I too wonder about this huge budget for the summit but for the life of me I cannot imagine why they would intentionally give out a bogus budget that's been inflated unless it was just to try and convince the public it was necessary for safety.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The G20 is worth having even although rioters are making it expensive. For example, 3rd world poverty was a top item on the agenda and forums put countries on the spot to commit.

Yeah but what have our leaders done? There's not even anything conclusive about keeping the G20's own huge economy afloat, other than that we have a bit of an economic problem. Is there a plan to solve debt? No. Is there a plan to eliminate poverty? No. Is the a plan to make sure we don't harm the environment any more? No. Nothing got solved this weekend. It was basically some R&R at a big up convention.

It's not like this is news; the governments of the world have traditionally had a pretty bad track record in dealing with anything other than an imminent military threat. It's just disheartening to see $1 billion and a city shut down so our politicians fronting the inaction can get some facetime behind a big metal fence.

 

[kEiThZ]

To be fair on the cost, a lot of it is the fact that we honestly account for this stuff far more than other countries do.

So, for example, military personnel assigned to support the G8, see their temporary duty budgets billed to the G8/G20 fin code. Ditto for the gas to fly the jets and helicopters over head. You can bet that the lake included the cost of the whole media centre and maybe other upgrades to the CBC. etc. Parliamentary budget reports often include the pay for military personnel too, even though they would have gotten paid anyway, if they had stayed at home.

Other countries don't necessarily do things this way, hence the costs appear lower. For example, Sarkozy can boast about the conference costing 1/10 of what it does in Toronto. Except Paris has a longstanding security setup that's already funded to handle these kind of events. They don't need cops and troops from all over the country to pull it off. And so a lot of those costs are borne by organizations with their existing budgets. So they don't show up on the final tab. And they certainly don't account for costs the way we do.

I have no issues with this kind of spending. We are a G8 nation. And this is the price of international diplomacy. Sometimes, we gotta foot the bill on this stuff when it's our turn. Though perhaps it might be far to debate whether we should be holding the G8/G20 in the first place. But, I would not want my country, as one of the richest in the world, shirking its responsibilities. And that goes for everything from international diplomacy, to international aid to participation in international conflicts. We are a great nation, and sometimes there's a price associated with that status.

 

[nfitz]

I hadn't heard about the incident at Queen and Spadina. I don't know why they would target and harass residents going about their business or waiting for a streetcar. Going to assume that we don't have all the details yet.

The four-hour surrounding of about 200 people, and several CTV crews (who got out a lot quicker). The media has been full of it, with lots of live footage on CTV's CP24. Some were protesting, some were not. Though the CTV staff who were in the middle of it said that there hadn't been any violence, so the whole things seemed rather out-of-place with much of the rest of the weekend.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yeah but what have our leaders done? There's not even anything conclusive about keeping the G20's own huge economy afloat, other than that we have a bit of an economic problem. Is there a plan to solve debt? No. Is there a plan to eliminate poverty? No. Is the a plan to make sure we don't harm the environment any more? No. Nothing got solved this weekend. It was basically some R&R at a big up convention.

It's not like this is news; the governments of the world have traditionally had a pretty bad track record in dealing with anything other than an imminent military threat. It's just disheartening to see $1 billion and a city shut down so our politicians fronting the inaction can get some facetime behind a big metal fence.

Conferences like this are not just about the leaders. There's a ton of staffers who meet behind the scenes are hash out lots of details. Sure these things run slow. But how does anybody think they eventually reach agreements on things like global warming, or banning CFCs, etc.

The final communique almost never reflects all that was discussed or all the work that was done. But that does not mean these conferences lack value.