[drum118]

What is the problem with seal train??

How far is it from London UK to Paris??? Been on many high speed trains where it is between 1:5 to 2:5 hours between stations let along slower ones.

Been on trains where I have been asked for my passport and they were gone in seconds

 

[crs1026]

What is the problem with seal train??

How far is it from London UK to Paris??? Been on many high speed trains where it is between 1:5 to 2:5 hours between stations let along slower ones.

Been on trains where I have been asked for my passport and they were gone in seconds

Europe is a zone where once you are in, you are mostly in. Its railway lines are a lot less porous than ours.

Passport control is pretty nominal both by road and by train. You can drive across national borders without even realising it.

But as Eurostar demonstrates, when there is a need for passport control, it takes a lot of infra to make it work.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

But as Eurostar demonstrates, when there is a need for passport control, it takes a lot of infra to make it work.

Does it? Gare du Nord seemed pretty minimal to me, utilizing otherwise unused space, and and even partly retrofit into a trainshed that didn't look as though it had had major work in a century or so.

 

[Sauga89]

You raise several different issues here, and maybe this belongs in the Union Station thread.

I'm not well informed about how much office space at Union is occupied by ML any more.... Generally the upstairs floors have little potential value as passenger space, because it does not have enough elevator and stairway capacity for that.....so whoever is up there and in what numbers is not relevant to the passenger side of the terminal.

Could VIA hypothetically add a new deck and walkways above the platforms, extricating itself from the Great Hall and departures concourse and feeding downwards onto the tracks to the east or west of the existing glass atrium? I suppose. But much as the departures area is one of the station's less attractive elements, I don't see how GO needs it that badly, and it's reasonably sized for VIA if VIA would utilise it a bit better.

Getting back to customs, I think a customs facility could hypothetically be shoehorned into the terminal if the need were there.... personally I would build it along Track 3 to the east of the UP terminal.......but as noted above, I don't see the "sealed" train concept ever proving practical. And there will never be that many international trains, so not a good use of space. So also a fantasy idea that will never come to be.

- Paul

I actually did raise this first in more detail in a post on the Union revitalization thread if you want to go look there (post #11,250 on Sunday), but then the next day, urban sky and nfitz started arguing in this thread about whether there was space at Union, so I raised it here as well more briefly. I won't get into too much detail because this probably isn't the thread for it, but basically I thought that if you knocked down the walls of the current Via rail concourse, you could create a more seamless connection between the new York and Bay concourses, and between those concourses and the Great Hall, building on the intentions of the southern corridor expansion. You could also I thought use develop some retail space there.

 

[lenaitch]

What is the problem with seal train??

How far is it from London UK to Paris??? Been on many high speed trains where it is between 1:5 to 2:5 hours between stations let along slower ones.

Neither country is the US, a country that likes building walls.

I have become convinced that the questions asked are mostly conversation until the computer spits back the data they have against your passport. Sure, the agent will take action if your behaviour or answers cause concern, but I'm convinced it is now the computer that is making more of the decisions.



I entered the US at Seattle airport last month, and the only interaction was a facial scan which would have been cross referenced to my Nexus card. No questions asked at all.

- Paul

The fact that you have a Nexus card mean you have already undergone a background check. A passport is only a declaration of citizenship. It is true that, for the vast majority of us, a border encounter is quite brief and painless, but the ball is always in their court.

I have no idea how Euro trains operate and assume they are mostly non-stop. Here, a passenger train might well sit on a siding waiting for a meet. With pre-clearance, does the train crew now become the custodians of the passengers?

 

[Urban Sky]

Ha! (Insert amused laughter here) Fair enough, you've got me there, I admit.

Could I beg your thoughts on redeveloping the office space at Union?

I really think that even if a pre-clearance facility isn't practical, that moving the VIA rail concourse over to Metrolinx's current office space makes a lot of sense, just from the perspective of domestic VIA travellers and GO commuters (I think I heard that the city of Toronto also has office space in the building?). You could convert the current VIA rail concourse for better use by commuters, and separate departing VIA passengers from commuters. Then you could build a pedestrian bridge to carry VIA passengers over to VIA's usual platforms, and maybe convert one of those platforms to a high-level platform for faster boarding.

I'm seriously open to someone telling me why this is a bad idea. (I've tried hard to search for previous posts on this, but searching "metrolinx offices" produces a mess of unrelated results.)

The current arrangement of having different concourse areas for intercity rail (VIA), regional rail (GO) and the Airport link (UP) is already questionable enough and considerably hampering the ease of transfers between these different rail types. Moving the VIA concourse two (!) levels up would wildly exacerbate this issue.

What is the problem with seal train??
How far is it from London UK to Paris??? Been on many high speed trains where it is between 1:5 to 2:5 hours between stations let along slower ones.

The problem is that cities like Hamilton, Kitchener, London and Windsor are too small to justify their own pre-clearance facility, but too big to skip these stations. You will never fill an entire train with international travellers when starting in Toronto amd you will never convince American border staff to man railway stations in cities like London, Kitchener, Hamilton or Oakville. This is fundamentally different for London-Paris, but the Eurostar stations Ebbsfleet and Ashford have not been closed by choice, but by necessity (a severe lack of French border personel to staff these stations).

Been on trains where I have been asked for my passport and they were gone in seconds

Good for you, but this is not how hard borders work.

Does it? Gare du Nord seemed pretty minimal to me, utilizing otherwise unused space, and and even partly retrofit into a trainshed that didn't look as though it had had major work in a century or so.

View attachment 616835

The border facilities at London Saint-Pancras are extensive (and I’m certain that that picture only shows a small fraction of the facilities at Gare du Nord - even Lille-Europe is far more extensive!) and still so insufficient that Euostar has to artificially restrict its passenger counts by 30% to not overwhelm the border facilities:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eurostar-london-terminal-capacity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/

 

[nfitz]

The border facilities at London Saint-Pancras are extensive and still so insufficient that Euostar has to artificially restrict its passenger counts by 30% to not overwhelm the birder facilities:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eurostar-london-terminal-capacity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/

The much bigger St. Pancras facility was significantly and unnecessarily crowded. I'm not really sure why it seemed so different to Gare du Nord. I'm only thinking about it in retrospect. Is it simply that they don't pile up passengers at Gare du Nord, and let them onto the platform and trains earlier?

 

[micheal_can]

The current arrangement of having different concourse areas for intercity rail (VIA), regional rail (GO) and the Airport link (UP) is already questionable enough and considerably hampering the ease of transfers between these different rail types. Moving the VIA concourse two (!) levels up would wildly exacerbate this issue.

If we look at Pearson for a moment, we have Many terminals. Within those terminals, things are organized by air carriers and domestic and international. Why should we think that would not be the case at a major train station which handles local (TTC),regional (GO)intercity (Via/ONR) and international (Amtrak).

 

[Urban Sky]

Just to give an (imperfect) idea of how extensive the Eurostar facilities in Paris are:

You would really monopolize large parts of the station and entire platforms for such a facility.
But anyways, this entire discussion is moot because of all the intermediary stations on the Canadian side, which are too small for pre-clearance, but too large to skip. Conversely, Detroit and Buffalo are very large cities right behind the border which makes them the perfect locations for pre/post-clearance facilities…

 

[nfitz]

Just to give an (imperfect) idea of how extensive the Eurostar facilities in Paris are:

You would really monopolize large parts of the station and entire platforms for such a facility.

I don't know what would prohibit the use of a platform for other uses when there's no actual train on the platform. Unlock the other doors and elevators.

The argument was that there wasn't space to do it. That's all I'm refuting. Whether it makes sense to do is a different question, at least for Toronto. There's less need to stop first at Montreal and Vancouver with the border being so close. But it would be crazy to have a train leaving Toronto, and not also stopping at cities like Hamilton and/or Kitchener, London, Windsor, Sarnia, Niagara Falls, etc.\

As for the space - it could be entirely above the existing tracks or in adjacent structures, no where near the current structures. The currently active portions of the platforms stretch from west of Simcoe Street, to east of Yonge Street. There's no reason that a structure couldn't be east of Yonge Street, and then feed onto the existing platform at the far end - which is how many big European stations work (and Vancouver!).

 

[drum118]

The much bigger St. Pancras facility was significantly and unnecessarily crowded. I'm not really sure why it seemed so different to Gare du Nord. I'm only thinking about it in retrospect. Is it simply that they don't pile up passengers at Gare du Nord, and let them onto the platform and trains earlier?

When we were at Gare du Nord in 2022, there was a long line up on the floor above us for the Eurostar. We were in a line up in London UK and were not allow to board the train until 30 minutes before it departed.

Even with an Nexus card, I have sail through customs with no issues both land and air, but run into issues from time to time by ground my an offices asking a whole pile of questions. Have sat behind a few cars that took close to 20 minutes to either be clear or being pull over for more inspection.

The current arrangement of having different concourse areas for intercity rail (VIA), regional rail (GO) and the Airport link (UP) is already questionable enough and considerably hampering the ease of transfers between these different rail types. Moving the VIA concourse two (!) levels up would wildly exacerbate this issue.


The problem is that cities like Hamilton, Kitchener, London and Windsor are too small to justify their own pre-clearance facility, but too big to skip these stations. You will never fill an entire train with international travellers when starting in Toronto amd you will never convince American border staff to man railway stations in cities like London, Kitchener, Hamilton or Oakville. This is fundamentally different for London-Paris, but the Eurostar stations Ebbsfleet and Ashford have not been closed by choice, but by necessity (a severe lack of French border personel to staff these stations).


Good for you, but this is not how hard borders work.


The border facilities at London Saint-Pancras are extensive (and I’m certain that that picture only shows a small fraction of the facilities at Gare du Nord - even Lille-Europe is far more extensive!) and still so insufficient that Euostar has to artificially restrict its passenger counts by 30% to not overwhelm the border facilities:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/eurostar-london-terminal-capacity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/

Other than the US/Canadian boarder, never had to show our passport as we cross from one country to another in Europe which has been 15 so far. Was asked for our passport in France on our way to Nice.

Seen far too many Amtrak trains arrived in NF where passengers got off the train to clear custom, but have never seen it done at NF US station yet since not around when it arrives.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't know what would prohibit the use of a platform for other uses when there's no actual train on the platform. Unlock the other doors and elevators.

Sure, but you’d presumably want to have trains depart and/or arrive during the morning and afternoon peak, which is when already GO/ONxpress and VIA will struggle to fit all their trains into the station and the loss of a full platform and track can be afforded the least…

Whether it makes sense to do is a different question, at least for Toronto. There's less need to stop first at Montreal and Vancouver with the border being so close. But it would be crazy to have a train leaving Toronto, and not also stopping at cities like Hamilton and/or Kitchener, London, Windsor, Sarnia, Niagara Falls, etc.\

Glad to see we agree on this one!

 

[nfitz]

When we were at Gare du Nord in 2022, there was a long line up on the floor above us for the Eurostar. We were in a line up in London UK and were not allow to board the train until 30 minutes before it departed.

The lines when I was there last time were similar to what you see in the video. Nothing of note.

The issue at St. Pancras wasn't the lines. It was the massive overheated waiting room that was overfilled, while you waited to board. Why did this seem to be an issue at St. Pancras, and not at Gare du Nord?

 

[Allandale25]

OKthePK - Public Canadian Railway News

Canadian railway news collected from a public source on the world wide web.

www.okthepk.ca

"Northeastern Ontario Passenger Rail Advocates Pitching New Plan to Restore Service"

 

[crs1026]

OKthePK - Public Canadian Railway News

Canadian railway news collected from a public source on the world wide web.

www.okthepk.ca

"Northeastern Ontario Passenger Rail Advocates Pitching New Plan to Restore Service"

The part of this article that I don't understand is the statement that the northern terminus is South Oba Lke, which is a little short of the CN junction at Oba. There are a couple of wilderness camps on adjacent lakes that might benefit, but nothing visible at Oba Lake itself - on Google anyways. One would think that even a once-weekly connection to VIA at Oba might be marketable in some small way. (I actually made that connection, a long time ago)

The explanation might be that there are a couple of long bridges over the lake between its south end and Oba, and the price tag for returning those to service and maintaining them might be, er, a bridge too far.

- Pul