ShonTron
Moderator
And in honour of Colbert's OHL trash-talking, the Brampton Pollenators.
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adma
Superstar
How about that Wayne & Shuster classic, the Mimico Mice
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Vaughan Sprawlers it is!
Business group meets with NHL to discuss second Toronto team
http://sports.theglobeandmail.com/s...3.wspthockey23/GSStory/GlobeSportsHockey/home
Article Comments (5)
DAVID SHOALTS
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
E-mail David Shoalts | Read Bio | Latest Columns
April 23, 2009 at 1:58 AM EDT
A group of business people wants to bring a second team to the Greater Toronto Area, and the National Hockey League took the group seriously enough to grant it an audience.
The unidentified group met with NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly in downtown Toronto last week, according to sources. The group proposes to build an arena at the intersection of Highways 427 and 7 in Vaughan, Ont., on land north of Pearson International Airport that's owned by businessman Victor De Zen.
The meeting was scheduled to last one hour but stretched to approximately 21/2 hours. The unidentified group also discussed its proposal with Paul Kelly, the executive director of the NHL Players' Association. Mr. Kelly and Mr. Daly declined to comment.
One source said the group's market research showed that a second team would not significantly impact the revenues of either the Toronto Maple Leafs or the Buffalo Sabres, provided that it is located in the northern part of the Metro Toronto area. Downsview and the area around Woodbine Race Track have also been considered by at least one business entity interested in bringing a team to the Toronto area.
It is known that Research In Motion founder Jim Balsillie has conducted market research toward bringing a franchise into the Toronto area. He attempted to acquire the Nashville Predators with the idea of moving it to Hamilton. However, the NHL is apparently unwilling to consider Hamilton as a location, in part because a team in that city would likely hurt Buffalo's operation.
Vaughan may be that much farther removed from the Air Canada Centre, home to the Maple Leafs in the downtown core, to make a second team acceptable to Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, owner of the Leafs.
MLSE's oft-repeated position is that it would not consider allowing another team into its territory until the league presents concrete data to demonstrate that the Leafs position in the marketplace would not be compromised.
The most obvious candidate for a move is the Phoenix Coyotes. The franchise is tied to an arena lease in Glendale, Ariz., until 2033, but the team is bleeding money with losses estimated to be in the area of $35-million (U.S.) this year. The NHL stepped in to keep the team afloat for the 2008-09 season, and there is some speculation that the league may attempt to negotiate a break-fee with Glendale in order to sell the club to a new owner.
One source at the NHL governors level said "there is something happening in Phoenix," but did not know specifics. League commissioner Gary Bettman did receive permission from the NHL governors recently to increase the league's line of credit to $190-million, in part to subsidize the Coyotes for at least one more season.
In Toronto, the group was told by Mr. Daly that the NHL is "not currently considering expansion nor do we have any intention or desire to relocate an existing franchise," according to a source.
However, the group is taking a long-term view, according to sources with knowledge of its plans. At least two years — more likely three to five — would be needed to build an arena and settle territorial-rights fees for the Leafs and perhaps the Sabres.
The total cost would be upward of $800-million — perhaps $200-million for the franchise, at least $200-million in territorial-rights fees and up to $400-million for an arena.
One NHL governor and one NHL owner, who both favour putting another franchise in Toronto, say economic conditions will prevent it for "the near term."
"The near-term I'd say is two years, minimum," the governor said. "I don't see this happening for at least four or five years. No one is lending anybody $400-million to build an arena, not even Canadian banks."
The NHL owner said Mr. Bettman has been "toying with the idea" of a second Toronto franchise but would open it to proposals from all parties in order to get the highest price.
Jim Leetch, CEO of the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Board, the majority owner of MLSE, said Wednesday he was unaware of efforts to put another team in the Toronto market. Other sources said neither MLSE nor the Buffalo Sabres were aware of the meeting with Mr. Daly.
It is possible the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan would welcome a large rights-fees payment, as it grapples with a large shortfall in the pension plan.
Sources say Mr. De Zen has no interest in owning an NHL team but may be willing to participate in an arena deal. A source said Joseph Sgro, general manager of Mr. De Zen's company, Zzen Group of Companies, was represented at the meeting.
Mr. De Zen recently left a company that he founded, Royal Group Technologies Ltd., after a scandal over land deals. He faces fraud charges, and has denied any wrongdoing.
Globe and Mail staff writers Jane Taber, Andrew Willis, Paul Waldie, Jeff Blair and Roy MacGregor contributed to this report
Business group meets with NHL to discuss second Toronto team
http://sports.theglobeandmail.com/s...3.wspthockey23/GSStory/GlobeSportsHockey/home
Article Comments (5)
DAVID SHOALTS
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
E-mail David Shoalts | Read Bio | Latest Columns
April 23, 2009 at 1:58 AM EDT
A group of business people wants to bring a second team to the Greater Toronto Area, and the National Hockey League took the group seriously enough to grant it an audience.
The unidentified group met with NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly in downtown Toronto last week, according to sources. The group proposes to build an arena at the intersection of Highways 427 and 7 in Vaughan, Ont., on land north of Pearson International Airport that's owned by businessman Victor De Zen.
The meeting was scheduled to last one hour but stretched to approximately 21/2 hours. The unidentified group also discussed its proposal with Paul Kelly, the executive director of the NHL Players' Association. Mr. Kelly and Mr. Daly declined to comment.
One source said the group's market research showed that a second team would not significantly impact the revenues of either the Toronto Maple Leafs or the Buffalo Sabres, provided that it is located in the northern part of the Metro Toronto area. Downsview and the area around Woodbine Race Track have also been considered by at least one business entity interested in bringing a team to the Toronto area.
It is known that Research In Motion founder Jim Balsillie has conducted market research toward bringing a franchise into the Toronto area. He attempted to acquire the Nashville Predators with the idea of moving it to Hamilton. However, the NHL is apparently unwilling to consider Hamilton as a location, in part because a team in that city would likely hurt Buffalo's operation.
Vaughan may be that much farther removed from the Air Canada Centre, home to the Maple Leafs in the downtown core, to make a second team acceptable to Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, owner of the Leafs.
MLSE's oft-repeated position is that it would not consider allowing another team into its territory until the league presents concrete data to demonstrate that the Leafs position in the marketplace would not be compromised.
The most obvious candidate for a move is the Phoenix Coyotes. The franchise is tied to an arena lease in Glendale, Ariz., until 2033, but the team is bleeding money with losses estimated to be in the area of $35-million (U.S.) this year. The NHL stepped in to keep the team afloat for the 2008-09 season, and there is some speculation that the league may attempt to negotiate a break-fee with Glendale in order to sell the club to a new owner.
One source at the NHL governors level said "there is something happening in Phoenix," but did not know specifics. League commissioner Gary Bettman did receive permission from the NHL governors recently to increase the league's line of credit to $190-million, in part to subsidize the Coyotes for at least one more season.
In Toronto, the group was told by Mr. Daly that the NHL is "not currently considering expansion nor do we have any intention or desire to relocate an existing franchise," according to a source.
However, the group is taking a long-term view, according to sources with knowledge of its plans. At least two years — more likely three to five — would be needed to build an arena and settle territorial-rights fees for the Leafs and perhaps the Sabres.
The total cost would be upward of $800-million — perhaps $200-million for the franchise, at least $200-million in territorial-rights fees and up to $400-million for an arena.
One NHL governor and one NHL owner, who both favour putting another franchise in Toronto, say economic conditions will prevent it for "the near term."
"The near-term I'd say is two years, minimum," the governor said. "I don't see this happening for at least four or five years. No one is lending anybody $400-million to build an arena, not even Canadian banks."
The NHL owner said Mr. Bettman has been "toying with the idea" of a second Toronto franchise but would open it to proposals from all parties in order to get the highest price.
Jim Leetch, CEO of the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Board, the majority owner of MLSE, said Wednesday he was unaware of efforts to put another team in the Toronto market. Other sources said neither MLSE nor the Buffalo Sabres were aware of the meeting with Mr. Daly.
It is possible the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan would welcome a large rights-fees payment, as it grapples with a large shortfall in the pension plan.
Sources say Mr. De Zen has no interest in owning an NHL team but may be willing to participate in an arena deal. A source said Joseph Sgro, general manager of Mr. De Zen's company, Zzen Group of Companies, was represented at the meeting.
Mr. De Zen recently left a company that he founded, Royal Group Technologies Ltd., after a scandal over land deals. He faces fraud charges, and has denied any wrongdoing.
Globe and Mail staff writers Jane Taber, Andrew Willis, Paul Waldie, Jeff Blair and Roy MacGregor contributed to this report
khris
Senior Member
I would not want to see a U.S. style arena built in the GTA. Where it's surrounded by a sea of parking, and beyond that a sea of cookie cutter homes.
I would rather see it built in a city centre like Mississauga, or Scarbourough, or North York.
I would rather see it built in a city centre like Mississauga, or Scarbourough, or North York.
Archivist
Senior Member
The Vaughan "Above Torontos"? Then the Habs could play the Abs!
jn_12
Senior Member
Interesting article. Hopefully Shoalts is on Primetime Sports tonight so he can shed a bit light.
ShonTron
Moderator
Heh.
Oh boy, 7 and the 427 is land largely owned by Royal Group. Horrible location - about as Kanatastic as they come. Indeed, this would be an arena surrounded by parking in the middle of nowhere.
Though the US cities usually are building downtown or near-downtown arenas - the New Jersey Devils now play in Downtown Newark, then there's Detroit, Boston, NYR, Buffalo, Washington, LA, Pittsburgh, St. Paul, Tampa, San Jose, Atlanta (!), Nashville (!), Columbus, St. Louis, Denver, Dallas. Chicago isn't downtown, but it is in an urban area at least.
The exceptions are places like Phoenix, Anaheim, Raleigh, Nassau County, Fort Lauderdale, Philadelphia, and of course, Ottawa and Edmonton.
Oh boy, 7 and the 427 is land largely owned by Royal Group. Horrible location - about as Kanatastic as they come. Indeed, this would be an arena surrounded by parking in the middle of nowhere.
Though the US cities usually are building downtown or near-downtown arenas - the New Jersey Devils now play in Downtown Newark, then there's Detroit, Boston, NYR, Buffalo, Washington, LA, Pittsburgh, St. Paul, Tampa, San Jose, Atlanta (!), Nashville (!), Columbus, St. Louis, Denver, Dallas. Chicago isn't downtown, but it is in an urban area at least.
The exceptions are places like Phoenix, Anaheim, Raleigh, Nassau County, Fort Lauderdale, Philadelphia, and of course, Ottawa and Edmonton.
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299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
I'd much prefer they implode the Walmart Supercentre at Vaughan Corp. Centre. It seems that no matter what good the rest of the GTA is doing, Vaughan is coming up with ideas that negates it all.
ShonTron - Edmonton's arena is far from being far flung in the middle of nowhere. It's only 10 blocks north of the downtown and connected to rapid transit, on the exhibition grounds. It's no different than BMO Field or Ricoh Coliseum, or the Saddledome in Calgary. The new arena to be built will be smack downtown.
ShonTron - Edmonton's arena is far from being far flung in the middle of nowhere. It's only 10 blocks north of the downtown and connected to rapid transit, on the exhibition grounds. It's no different than BMO Field or Ricoh Coliseum, or the Saddledome in Calgary. The new arena to be built will be smack downtown.
ShonTron
Moderator
That would be much, much better - for at least it would have the subway and the nearby GO 407 service. Downsview wouldn't be too bad either, if it has to be a northern GTA location to not compete against Buffalo.
I thought Edmonton was much farther out than it actually is. Still farther than 10 blocks from downtown, but at least on the LRT.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
I think the land they are talking about is the land north of 7 which is not owned by Royal but is owned by Zzen ....the real estate company that Vic De Zen owns/controls.
The 427 was recently extended north past highway 7 into that business park.
By the time the rink is built (if it ever is) would that area not be served by the expanded Viva service that just got a couple of billion dollars from the province and, eventually, the Accelirde service in Brampton?
Afterall, even if this was approved tomorrow...it takes a wee while to build a rink.
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
Try squishing all the people who take the GO Train or the subway to the ACC to Leafs games right now onto Viva buses.
Not to mention, in a location like 427/7, you will get a much larger spike of trips immediately before and after a game simply because there's nothing to do around there. In contrast, the trip levels around a game at the ACC don't spike as much because a lot of people hang around before and after a game by grabbing dinner or a drink in the surrounding area.
marcus_a_j
Senior Member
I definitely agree. I could even walk to the arena from where I work. The Sam's Club building is sitting empty right now, too.
wonderboy416
Active Member
Terrific news as the GTA can easily support another team... but the location sounds absurd. Mississauga would be wise to offer some of its remaining prime undeveloped land for such an arena. The MCC or NYCC would make the most sense IMO... although MCC might be too close to sucking in Hamiltonians would'd regularly make the trip up to Buffalo?
With multiple hockey and basketball teams in the NYC area, LA area and a few cities hosting multiple baseball teams why can't the world's biggest hockey market have two NHL teams? I'm sure the major tv players (TSN, Sportsnet, The Score) are really pulling for this to happen as well.
With multiple hockey and basketball teams in the NYC area, LA area and a few cities hosting multiple baseball teams why can't the world's biggest hockey market have two NHL teams? I'm sure the major tv players (TSN, Sportsnet, The Score) are really pulling for this to happen as well.
realtycoon
New Member
The location is great.. A lot better than Mississauga, Hamilton or Waterloo! At least all of us in the North and East of the GTA can actually get to this arena. A Mississauga location is too far for anyone east of the 400.
ellett44
New Member
Stadium in North York
I've always thought that putting a second team actually in Toronto, and specifically in North York, makes the most sense. The question would be where the stadium would go.
Whenever a talk about a new stadium in North York starts, people always suggest Downsview for obvious reasons (at the very least this would surely net us an extension of the Sheppard subway to Downsview, or is transit that backwards?!). With that said, I've always liked the idea of putting it in NYCC, somewhere b/w Empress and the 401, but there really isn't much much room anymore. I remember talk about putting a baseball stadium at Yonge and the 401 sometime ago, but I don't think that land is available anymore.
Anyone have any suggestions for a stadium location in this area or in another area in North york?
I've always thought that putting a second team actually in Toronto, and specifically in North York, makes the most sense. The question would be where the stadium would go.
Whenever a talk about a new stadium in North York starts, people always suggest Downsview for obvious reasons (at the very least this would surely net us an extension of the Sheppard subway to Downsview, or is transit that backwards?!). With that said, I've always liked the idea of putting it in NYCC, somewhere b/w Empress and the 401, but there really isn't much much room anymore. I remember talk about putting a baseball stadium at Yonge and the 401 sometime ago, but I don't think that land is available anymore.
Anyone have any suggestions for a stadium location in this area or in another area in North york?