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Buy some of the dual-power locomotives that AMT and NJT use. Then you can electrify the central areas without having to rush completing lines end to end. You can add wire incrementally.

I don't agree that we need to throw money at this to speed it up. That's how tax dollars should NOT be used. The EA is progressing well, the design work is coming - so do it at the pace that gets best value for money.

- Paul
 
@crs1026

I'd argue that they'll want to speed things up to show progress. The provincial Liberals have followed one bad news announcement after another. And they'll have even more political liabilities coming from the sale of Hydro One. They'll have to deliver on GTA transit to have a shot in the next election. The federal Liberals, likewise, will have to do something big to get entrenched in the GTA.

No LRT in Toronto is going to give political bang for bucks. Toronto votes red anyway. But investments in GO will deliver for both governments. Combine that with likely effort to push VIA's plan (including electrification) and there's some synergies that could save money.

You're right that's not how tax dollars should be used. But that is how they are used. This provincial Liberal government is the same one that agree to incur nearly a billion dollars in costs to cancel a gas plant just to protect two seats in Oakville and Mississauga. Spending a little bit more to speed up delivery of transit projects is actually eminently more sensible, not as wasteful, and far more politically rewarding. It's going to happen.
 
You're correct that politicians will spend just to impress us at election time, and the Ontario Liberals are the worst of the worst for that. The other consideration, possibly as large, is the bureaucracy's imperative - to get things far enough along that the incoming government can't credibly cancel the project. Cancellation needs to look like the worse alternative economically.

If the bureaucracy is confident that they can get shovels in the ground before an election, fine, spend the money. In project space, we are so close to 2017 that even if you ramped design up now, there may not be time to get anything constructed. Electrical switchgear and transformers are long lead time purchases - you may not be able to buy the material fast enough to meet the election deadline.

I'm really really really passionate about these dual mode electric locos, because they make electrification viable even if the project scope is cut back in a couple of years. I don't expect an incoming government to cancel all transit projects - that would be wildly unpopular - but they may be more controlled about the total purse. With dual mode, you can break electrification into small incremental projects, which could keep the initiative progressing even if budgets tighten.

- Paul
 
First of all, you need motor power that doesn't cost an arm and leg, as well starting to show up by 2018.

Unless tenders are issue in 2016 for both motor power and electrification, not going to happen starting in 2018.

Not a fan of the AMT-NJT power as its too costly and over built. At $13 million a piece, you have to give up on various things improving GO to afford them. You are going to need a few of them, but all of them.

Unless there is real construction underway in 2017 with strong cancellation clauses in the contracts, the next government in 2018 will/could delay this work or kill it out right.

If you are doing RER, you don't need 10-14 cars trains and that will be another type of equipment that will be needed that we don't have today.

Selling Hydro One to fund Transit the wrong way to do it.
 
Personally, I just don't see the next provincial government killing the RER. The 905 is where the swing votes are. There's a better chance that the red-voting 416 would lose or defer the DRL and/or some LRTs, than the RER cancelled. I'm just thinking that provincial and federal Liberals will want this accelerated to make some political hay. And I'm wondering how they can do that.

Could gweed be right? Could they push say just certain corridors like Lakeshore and Georgetown? Both of those would be quite handy to VIA for any VIA Fast proposal.
 
Amtrak bought 70 pure electrics for $466M USD. AMD paid $223M for 20 dual modes, admittedly more expensive but more versatile too. Let's say an added $80M on a 20-unit order. That's small change for ML.

For RER, the answer may be EMU's....Chicago is currently accepting 160 Silverliners which cost $577M USD.

UPX is the sure-fire winner for quick electrification. Extending the wire to Bramalea wouldn't cost much incrementally. Dual Mode would get you to Mount Pleasant and Kitchener.

You won't electrify LSE until the added track gets built and a new signal system is installed (you have to electricity-proof the signalling before you can run electrics). Same with Unionville and Barrie. (Let's hope their new signal systems are already electrification-compatible). Georgetown and Milton have conflicts with freight operations, as does Richmond Hill ...... CN will insist on an over/underpass there. I don't see how the civil work on these lines can be fast-tracked in time to electrify before the next elections.

You could probably advance design to the point where you could complete procurement before the elections. With the right cancellation penalties, you could probably be confident that these aren't going to be undone by the next government. But that's an unpalatable repeat of the Hydro gas plant debacle, and it's optics, not opening day.

- Paul
 
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kEiThZ said:
Personally, I just don't see the next provincial government killing the RER. The 905 is where the swing votes are. There's a better chance that the red-voting 416 would lose or defer the DRL and/or some LRTs, than the RER cancelled. I'm just thinking that provincial and federal Liberals will want this accelerated to make some political hay. And I'm wondering how they can do that.

Could gweed be right? Could they push say just certain corridors like Lakeshore and Georgetown? Both of those would be quite handy to VIA for any VIA Fast proposal.
Click to expand...
At this time, Lakeshore and Georgetown will see RER after 2018, but will parts of it be electrify??

Until you Get CN on board to electrify their corridors, you will need to have duel power to go beyond Metrolinx Electrification section if it stay on course. Then you got to deal with CP.

Both lines when fully built out will not require 100% electrification under Metrolinx thinking due quality of service beyond X point.

If and when the Fed's invest money in the electrification of GO system, it will mean we have finally start to move to the 21th century. Down size to this, what will the cost be to operate an electrify system with our climbing hydro rate than staying with diesel with its short fall??
 
I see ALP45DPs discussed on railroad.net for applications like MARC and the consensus seems to be not enough capability for too much money. They might work in a GO Transit context, bridging electrification gaps where either a physical obstacle or a freight RR (west of Bramalea or Burlington for example) refuses to allow it. The problem is that 45DPs are massively heavy and have a small fuel tank. In a VIA context that just doesn't work for southern Ontario and even if the entire Alexandria Sub was electrified you still have quite a ways to go from Coteau to Montreal.

The problem with electrification is finding the political will/money AND enough time to complete. For example, UK government has been committed to expanding electrification for some time but the lead time to get it done is substantial because either grid connections don't exist for the transformers or there isn't enough loading gauge clearance for the overhead or something else holds it up. Solving these issues rarely involves weeks or months. This in a continent where passenger usually trumps freight rather than freight railroads holding vetoes as over here.
 
I feel like people on UT are grossly underestimating the amount of money, time, work (replacing tracks, getting the infrastructure setup for electric trains) it would take to electrify the GO network.

Even just the lakeshore line.

Metrolinxs main priority should be to build the "missing link", not electrify.

I would be happy with GO still being diesel, so long as every line is " all day, both ways, half hour service).
 
crs1026 said:
Amtrak bought 70 pure electrics for $466M USD. AMD paid $223M for 20 dual modes, admittedly more expensive but more versatile too. Let's say an added $80M on a 20-unit order. That's small change for ML.

For RER, the answer may be EMU's....Chicago is currently accepting 160 Silverliners which cost $577M USD.

UPX is the sure-fire winner for quick electrification. Extending the wire to Bramalea wouldn't cost much incrementally. Dual Mode would get you to Mount Pleasant and Kitchener.

You won't electrify LSE until the added track gets built and a new signal system is installed (you have to electricity-proof the signalling before you can run electrics). Same with Unionville and Barrie. (Let's hope their new signal systems are already electrification-compatible). Georgetown and Milton have conflicts with freight operations, as does Richmond Hill ...... CN will insist on an over/underpass there. I don't see how the civil work on these lines can be fast-tracked in time to electrify before the next elections.

You could probably advance design to the point where you could complete procurement before the elections. With the right cancellation penalties, you could probably be confident that these aren't going to be undone by the next government. But that's an unpalatable repeat of the Hydro gas plant debacle, and it's optics, not opening day.

- Paul
Click to expand...
With our dollar being so low, that 20 unit AMD order would be not $80M, but close to $300M for Duel and that not small change. Using Amtrak power, you are looking at about $120M. Have no idea what you are planing on buying for $80M unless diesel since it so low.

UPX was to be the first to be electrify.
 
Bojaxs said:
I feel like people on UT are grossly underestimating the amount of money, time, work (replacing tracks, getting the infrastructure setup for electric trains) it would take to electrify the GO network.

Even just the lakeshore line.

Metrolinxs main priority should be to build the "missing link", not electrify.

I would be happy with GO still being diesel, so long as every line is " all day, both ways, half hour service).
Click to expand...

And what makes you think this so called "Missing Link" will be any easier to construct?
 
drum118 said:
With our dollar being so low, that 20 unit AMD order would be not $80M, but close to $300M for Duel and that not small change. Using Amtrak power, you are looking at about $120M. Have no idea what you are planing on buying for $80M unless diesel since it so low.

UPX was to be the first to be electrify.
Click to expand...

I meant, the difference between 20 pure electrics and 20 dual mode would be about $80M.

One wonders if the new deal on global warming will create some momentum, ie funding, for this project.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
One wonders if the new deal on global warming will create some momentum, ie funding, for this project.
Click to expand...

Almost certainly, a carbon tax was part of the funding plan and now it's necessary for Canada to meet it's promises.

That said, Wynne is getting a huge gift with the collapse of oil. GDP growth for Ontario in the second half of 2015 has skyrocketed and 2016/2017 are looking like they'll be big growth years (2.5% to 3%).

That adds about $4B/year to the revenue pot for the 2017/2018 budget. Makes closing the deficit gap much easier and greatly increases Ontario's borrowing limit for capital projects. The downside is tenders will probably go up (parts/components sourced from outside Canada).
 
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