[Allandale25]

Heck we even had a MPP from KW area give a speech at Queens Park last week that said (and I am paraphrasing from memory but I am sure I am not far off) that no one gets on the trains between Kitchener and Malton anyway.

Your impression and memory is correct. The MPP did imply that which is pretty bizarre. You'd think her NDP candidates in Brampton wouldn't appreciate that attitude but I guess very few noticed it other than people like us who follow these issues closely.

Here's what the KW MPP said when speaking to her motion:

I kept track, because clearly I need to get a life or something. I was on the train this morning, and, honestly, until I got to Malton—that was where the vast majority of people got on the train. In Guelph, there were only 30 people who got on.

Now, I will tell you that it was delayed 23 minutes from the get-go. I was on the 6:47 train, but they told us immediately that it would be delayed 23 minutes. That is not a good way to start your commute, Madam Speaker; I can tell you that much.

Here's the tweet of her getting on the 0647 train in Kitchener in the morning.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

My question is why a tunnel? This should be not be hard to build a 4th track to georgetown. That should not cost more then 450 million

 

[Allandale25]

My question is why a tunnel? This should be not be hard to build a 4th track to georgetown. That should not cost more then 450 million

The tunnel portion is only for the 401/409 portion. It'll be on the north side. The tunnel itself is only $116.9m. See the location here.

 

[crs1026]

it is not a hard calculation.
It goes like this (in the voice of CN) "we want these many millions of dollars in addition the bypass.....if it matters to you, you will pay it. If it doesn't matter, we are fine the way we are....are you?"
There is no reason/need for them to justify their ask in any other manner....they own something the government wants/needs.

The government wants/needs it, and this is not a purchase of service from a monopoly. There is no obligation to serve on the part of this monopoly. There is no regulator to stand in for what a market would do to the price. It is closer to an expropriation. This country has agreed that its railways are just another capitalist business using the full rules of capitalism. Old dogma about public franchise, obligations in exchange for land grants etc, are no longer relevant.

There may well be some sort of legal process that would allow Ontario to take control of the asset and let CN seek damages in "court" (cue to @steve) - but -
the choice for Ontario is whether to take on the litigation or to negotiate. CN is free to ask the "court" for any amount, and the "court" might well award more than CN has already demanded (or Ontario has offered to pay) in negotiations. The "court" is the least knowledgeable party in the room about railways and what their earnings and costs may be - it's easy for the shareholders' lawyers to wax poetic, and for expert witnesses to duel it out.

It's a case of "be careful what you ask for".

I have this fantasy wishful thought that if/when NAFTA dies, the US and Canadian railways are unbundled again. Then you have the Canadian government able to set the rules for Canadian railways and that basis being other than pure capitalism. Until then, the system is locked.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ I think but could be mistake the Province could ask for federal help through the Canadian Transportation Agency. Someone cited a case where VIA used the CTA to give them access across CP's tracks in Smith Falls. But that's small compared to the Bypass and forcing CN to agree. Since the CTA is a fairly public process, it's also clear that they haven't been asked to intervene on trains just to Bramalea.

 

[crs1026]

^ I think but could be mistake the Province could ask for federal help through the Canadian Transportation Agency. Someone cited a case where VIA used the CTA to give them access across CP's tracks in Smith Falls. But that's small compared to the Bypass and forcing CN to agree. Since the CTA is a fairly public process, it's also clear that they haven't been asked to intervene on trains just to Bramalea.

Yeah, the CTA was the body I was thinking of when I put the quotes around "court". I don't know the intricate details of how it works, but it's clearly a tribunal process with arguments by the parties. The issue is their decision rules, which amount to "don't let public bodies interfere with or erode the shareholders' interests without compensating the shareholder". The application of their decision rules around compensation are the wild card.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The government wants/needs it, and this is not a purchase of service from a monopoly. There is no obligation to serve on the part of this monopoly. There is no regulator to stand in for what a market would do to the price. It is closer to an expropriation. This country has agreed that its railways are just another capitalist business using the full rules of capitalism. Old dogma about public franchise, obligations in exchange for land grants etc, are no longer relevant.

There may well be some sort of legal process that would allow Ontario to take control of the asset and let CN seek damages in "court" (cue to @steve) - but -
the choice for Ontario is whether to take on the litigation or to negotiate. CN is free to ask the "court" for any amount, and the "court" might well award more than CN has already demanded (or Ontario has offered to pay) in negotiations. The "court" is the least knowledgeable party in the room about railways and what their earnings and costs may be - it's easy for the shareholders' lawyers to wax poetic, and for expert witnesses to duel it out.

It's a case of "be careful what you ask for".

I have this fantasy wishful thought that if/when NAFTA dies, the US and Canadian railways are unbundled again. Then you have the Canadian government able to set the rules for Canadian railways and that basis being other than pure capitalism. Until then, the system is locked.

- Paul

it is not a hard calculation.

It goes like this (in the voice of CN) "we want these many millions of dollars in addition the bypass.....if it matters to you, you will pay it. If it doesn't matter, we are fine the way we are....are you?"

There is no reason/need for them to justify their ask in any other manner....they own something the government wants/needs.

Metrolinx seriously needs to get on board and pay whatever CN wants. I wish they cared about this as much as building a subway to Vaughan of all places.

The tunnel portion is only for the 401/409 portion. It'll be on the north side. The tunnel itself is only $116.9m. See the location here.

But my thing is there is still no official guarantee of all day service if and when this is built.

 

[TOareaFan]

Metrolinx seriously needs to get on board and pay whatever CN wants.

That is crazy talk.....every project must have an upper limit on what you can/will spend relative to the value it creates/delivers.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That is crazy talk.....every project must have an upper limit on what you can/will spend relative to the value it creates/delivers.

But the urgency and need for this project is high and the cost is not that high. CN is not going to be unreasonable.

 

[drum118]

K-W Line New Track 1 being install for the Weston Fly-under. All the precast ties are lay with the inside rail in place and the outside being place.

Not up to date on the changes plan for the new Track 1, but what is the plan to add the platform for that track not only for Weston, but other stations?? Been too long since I dealt with this area, but the plans going back almost 10 years call for a new side platform with the provision of the future Bolton line branching off north of the platform and connecting to CP line. Not sure if a tunnel extension was built from the current platform to the future platform when the new Weston Station was built.

 

[TOareaFan]

But the urgency and need for this project is high and the cost is not that high. CN is not going to be unreasonable.

You seem to be the only person in a position to say that.

No one knows the cost.....as far as I have read.

 

[Streety McCarface]

You seem to be the only person in a position to say that.

No one knows the cost.....as far as I have read.

Metrolinx reports cited 2.2 Billion for the entire extension beyond Bramalea. For a 30,000 PPD (15,000 each direction) daily ridership, that's even worse than a Scarborough subway, and I live in Waterloo...

 

[Neutrino]

They were doing some work on Barrie line at Steeles today.

 

[crs1026]

Metrolinx reports cited 2.2 Billion for the entire extension beyond Bramalea. For a 30,000 PPD (15,000 each direction) daily ridership, that's even worse than a Scarborough subway, and I live in Waterloo...

In the absolute, this may be true. But consider the cost of whatever is needed next after the current 401 expansion is completed. Those new 401 lanes will be full on the day they open, but they will not deliver improved travel times for even the existing users. Solving congestion in the west GTA will have a new price point, this line can deliver value for its cost.

But the urgency and need for this project is high and the cost is not that high. CN is not going to be unreasonable.

No disrespect meant, but car dealers must love it when you walk onto the lot.

Nobody conducts a productive negotiation from that opening position.


- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

Metrolinx reports cited 2.2 Billion for the entire extension beyond Bramalea. For a 30,000 PPD (15,000 each direction) daily ridership, that's even worse than a Scarborough subway, and I live in Waterloo...

That may be the physical cost of building the bypass (seems low to me but it is the operating figure) but what we are discussing is what is needed to give CN the motivation to say “yes, we will move our trains to the bypass” and, I suspect, “we will share it with CP so you can free up some space on your Milton line too”