[steveintoronto]

Uploading the subways isn't a bad idea in theory, but how aggressively it's being done is concerning. I think things will get ugly fast between the TTC union and QP unless there's a phased transition handover (which their probably won't be). Toronto also needs assurances that the service frequencies will be maintained.
Expect legal battles and chaos.

The whole surmise, as being presented, is so incredibly devoid of business acumen that it's almost impossible to see how this can work. It's going down about as logically as a vehicle hijacking.

Done by the right regime in QP, this could be a brilliant move. But it requires a degree of IQ let alone acumen. We're shid out of luck on both.

I'm almost content to see this go so terribly wrong as to force the morons to wear it. Don't worry though, there's always David Miller to blame...

The only way this could possibly make any sense with this regime is that they fug it up so bad that privatization is the only option left to run it. Except what business wants to buy a wreck?

This looks like the job for a label maker! Not...

but how aggressively it's being done is concerning

If the Province approached the Infra Bank along with Infrastructure Ontario to 'test the Market' to see what opportunities could exist, the upload could be leveraged to attain a greater whole. But these morons think if they dress with shiny shoes and a tie, it makes them business savvy. Anything but, as they're clearly showing.
Gist: "I want a giant train set for Christmas with a huge ice-cream and it will run to everywhere! Santa please! We're special, not like those nasty leftards".

To be more frank about this, and testing the limits of the Mods, these guys are fugging idiots...I wouldn't trust them with a pitch fork, let alone the keys to the tractor.

 

[Northern Light]

New York state 'uploaded' the subways a few decades back from NYC.

That has not worked out particularly well.

Its created a problem in which no single entity is accountable for service, maintenance, expansion or funding.

***

The reality on the ground of any upload is that it will still be the TTC's staff who run the subway no matter what. There simply aren't the personnel floating around to replace them.

You could rebrand them as working in a new department, or for Metrolinx, but they would still be the same people, based out of the same yards etc etc.

There is no value in creating a multi-headed hydra, nor in absorbing all the local transit authorities which would simply make an unwieldy beast.

***

The u/l as promised appears to be an accounting maneuver that would allow the province to reduce its net debt by showing the subway as an asset on their books instead of the City's.

(the problem this may create for the City's books is another matter)

Whether that is what is actually done we will simply have to wait and see.

The potential to muck this up, at great cost, is enormous.

***

Regional coordination and planning are already possible. That is simply a matter of political will. The province can impose a harmonized fare structure, cross-boundary routes, and sensible planning. The fact they
haven't done so thus far does not leave me with any great hopes.

Some thinning of agencies that are small in the area would make sense, that too can be imposed by the province. (Peel Transit and Halton Transit would both make sense and rationalize the number of players)

I'm not expecting that to happen though.

 

[steveintoronto]

New York state 'uploaded' the subways a few decades back from NYC.

That has not worked out particularly well.

It's a little more complicated than that, but point holds. MTA always was a creation of the State.

The New York City Subway is a rapid transit system owned by the City of New York and leased to the New York City Transit Authority,[13] a subsidiary agency of the state-run Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA).[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway

But even that is 'convoluted' as Byford is finding out. The State was soaking the City from 'leasing' it, and acting as a fiducial parasite on it.

NYC is going to have to be disqualified as a comparator in this instance, even though Ford will try and cherry-pick examples of where the MTA has succeeded like a 'Superlinx'. Oddly, Metrolinx was just stripped of the 'highway' clause.

http://web.mta.info/mta/compliance/pdf/Description and Board Structure.pdf

This is good to know as Ford will try and obfuscate that as per the Toronto Subway upload being an analog.

 

[asher__jo]

But these morons think if they dress with shiny shoes and a tie, it makes them business savvy.

This is Toronto amalgamation all over again in the name of 'efficiencies'.

 

[Amare]

But I would think this PC government would quickly realize that the amount of money they spent on a subway extension to Pickering, say, could go a long way toward building out a GO RER system that pretty much encompasses all existing GO corridors. And certainly everything immediately planned by the previous government. Hate the Liberals all one wants, I would hope the public outcry over the potential colossal waste of money would reach even the PC ear.

I know this is a bit off the current topic and I’ll shut up now.

Not off topic at all, as many of these projects relate to anticipated service upticks that GO RER would bring.

At least 70% of the public isnt even aware that the GO RER concept even exists, and im sure the same amount wouldn't even know what it is. There wont be any public outcry over it I can guarantee you that. If there hasnt been any public outcry over people being gridlocked on the 401 day in and day out, with many seemingly content with wasting their time driving in conditions like that, I doubt the general public will complain about potential subways to Pickering.

You know, for many people/areas that describes the Wynne and McGuinty era as well.

Are there any planned ReR routes that do not already have 30 minute frequencies on their GO "train" buses?

Technically, there are bits and pieces of lines scattered throughout that do not have 30 min "train-bus" service. Essentially my point is, the dodos currently at the provincial level would call already existing 30 min bus service on those corridors RER and use that (as well a subways everywhere) as an excuse not to implement RER.

 

[drum118]

Those who voted for Ford are going to see good old Mike back with a stronger backbone to tell everyone to go to hell, with transit getting a bigger screw this time.

One only has to look at New Jersey and Maryland beside MTA how transit went down hill after the state took over control of transit.

Even Metrolinx is going to become something else than it is today and seeing project push down the road, with pet project surfacing ahead of schedule or not on the books.

When the subway is uploaded, QP can do the union busting and bring in someone else to run it just like it will with Metrolinx. Various bus/train routes will be put out for bids and see a number of new operators for them that will pay less wages to drivers and staff.

 

[44 North]

Regional coordination and planning are already possible. That is simply a matter of political will. The province can impose a harmonized fare structure, cross-boundary routes, and sensible planning. The fact they
haven't done so thus far does not leave me with any great hopes.

Some thinning of agencies that are small in the area would make sense, that too can be imposed by the province. (Peel Transit and Halton Transit would both make sense and rationalize the number of players)

I'm not expecting that to happen though.

Exactly, thank you. This is why it's annoying to read the whines in other threads re: this issue. The fact QP hasn't done so over the last +10yrs shows that a harmonized fare structure costs money, and changing control/ownership doesn't change that.

It's a little more complicated than that, but point holds. MTA always was a creation of the State.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway

But even that is 'convoluted' as Byford is finding out. The State was soaking the City from 'leasing' it, and acting as a fiducial parasite on it.

NYC is going to have to be disqualified as a comparator in this instance, even though Ford will try and cherry-pick examples of where the MTA has succeeded like a 'Superlinx'. Oddly, Metrolinx was just stripped of the 'highway' clause.

View attachment 164647
http://web.mta.info/mta/compliance/pdf/Description and Board Structure.pdf

This is good to know as Ford will try and obfuscate that as per the Toronto Subway upload being an analog.

See the NYC thing is interesting, confusing, and why I don't see the parallels here. NYC still owns the subway (which is in the first sentence of the Wiki page). But it's leasing(?) it out to MTA. For how long, and what does that lease allow, I'm not sure.. But it certainly doesn't involve a change of ownership and direct upload.

I think the PC upload plan doesn't have as much legs as some think. This is just a guess, but if the Prov wanted to upload why would they spend many months creating a business case. I'm sure they can easily implement control, which they could've been done already - be it by McGuinty or DF. But taking ownership is another matter and feel like it requires majority support from City Council. If even. I might be wrong, but I can't think of any city that had all its multi-billion dollar subway assets taken. Bought out, leased, cede control but not ownership. Not so much taking.

 

[steveintoronto]

The PC upload plan doesn't have as much legs as I think. This is just a guess, but if the Prov wanted to upload why would they spend many months creating a business case.

It's just so bizarre that trying to fit anything rational to it is an irrationality in itself.

But taking ownership is another matter and feel like it requires majority support from City Council.

Not only does Council not have a say, compensation isn't required under the Toronto Act either.

Could this end in a massive court examination that would dwarf the ward boundaries? (Yet to have the appeal heard). You betcha.

To follow on your gist, if the Province wanted to do this successfully, and in a manner positive for all, they'd make it a case of *assisting* the City.

But this is all about malice and spite, not helping Toronto, and certainly not helping those who elected this idiot bunch.

It's all so devoid of any logic...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-system-failure-delays.html

 

[Northern Light]

Those who voted for Ford are going to see good old Mike back with a stronger backbone to tell everyone to go to hell, with transit getting a bigger screw this time.

One only has to look at New Jersey and Maryland beside MTA how transit went down hill after the state took over control of transit.

Even Metrolinx is going to become something else than it is today and seeing project push down the road, with pet project surfacing ahead of schedule or not on the books.

When the subway is uploaded, QP can do the union busting and bring in someone else to run it just like it will with Metrolinx. Various bus/train routes will be put out for bids and see a number of new operators for them that will pay less wages to drivers and staff.

Why bother w/that? TTC is already pushing to 1-person crews for trains; and I fully expect there will be platform edge doors at some point which with ATC makes for a zero-driver operation.

There are zero non-TTC trained subway operators in Ontario.

I just don't see why anyone would expend political capital for so little gain.

Though if anyone was to prove me wrong..........it would be DF. LOL

 

[drum118]

Why bother w/that? TTC is already pushing to 1-person crews for trains; and I fully expect there will be platform edge doors at some point which with ATC makes for a zero-driver operation.

There are zero non-TTC trained subway operators in Ontario.

I just don't see why anyone would expend political capital for so little gain.

Though if anyone was to prove me wrong..........it would be DF. LOL

Ford is a bully and going after everyone who did him wrong to get revenge no matter the cost and who else is hurt along the way.

Every non operator system I have been on, still someone on the train to deal with issues the that may occur.

Just because there is zero non TTC trained operators in Ontario, does mean they can come from somewhere else.

I said the day he decided to after power, he will be worse than Mike Harris and set transit and other things back 20 years or more, while giving the farm away free.

As for TTC being 100% ATO and no driver, 2040+ at this time, starting with lines 1 & 4 first in 2020's.

 

[rbt]

But taking ownership is another matter and feel like it requires majority support from City Council. If even. I might be wrong, but I can't think of any city that had all its multi-billion dollar subway assets taken. Bought out, leased, cede control but not ownership. Not so much taking.

The city doesn't actually have any say at all, unless the province asks for their opinion. Since Toronto is effectively a department of the province (as is the case of all municipalities in Canada), the province can simply order it to be done.

 

[crs1026]

Is it time for the moderators to move some of this discussion to the uploading thread?

- Paul

 

[TransitBart]

GO Barrie Line northbound train. From Toronto MOCA (Museum of Contemporary Art) on a Sunday before noon. Fast pic last weekend before the train was gone.

 

[Andy_in_Toronto]

That means there is now service on weekends to Barrie?

 

[TOareaFan]

That means there is now service on weekends to Barrie?

For nearly a year now I believe