Voltz
Senior Member
They have probably just pushed it off to the private bidder for GO RER, GO Expansion or whatever it is called now to decide if they want to do it or not,, like they did with extending the third track from Guildwood to Pickering.
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
They have probably just pushed it off to the private bidder for GO RER, GO Expansion or whatever it is called now to decide if they want to do it or not,, like they did with extending the third track from Guildwood to Pickering.
crs1026
Superstar
The latest I can find on the ML website is under the Early Works banner, which mostly means civil works. Station construction would presumably come later. The most recent community presentation mentions retaining walls on the south side around Main Street, but nothing more.
I haven’t seen any explanation of how ML plans to use its tracks after the fourth track goes in, but if the outside tracks were the express tracks, and the fourth track is to go in on the south side, the existing island would suffice for both local tracks, with some tweaking of the south side.
- Paul
I haven’t seen any explanation of how ML plans to use its tracks after the fourth track goes in, but if the outside tracks were the express tracks, and the fourth track is to go in on the south side, the existing island would suffice for both local tracks, with some tweaking of the south side.
- Paul
nfitz
Superstar
Oh that's interesting. And very odd - that's just a 100-metre section just west of the station from the edge of the existing platform, westward. But that was only built a few years ago when they added the third track, and the fourth track was supposed to be on the north side.
So are they just opportunistically addressing a deficiency, or have they decided to stick the fourth track south of the 3 existing tracks, and simply extend the existing tunnel a bit further south more, and have no fourth platform after all?
They don't really need a fourth platform at Danforth - three is more than enough! Currently platform 2 is barely used as it is (unless they are doing track maintenance), with VIA and GO trains running through express.
smallspy
Senior Member
Looping the line allows for far greater frequences/lower headways than is capable with a point-to-point service - provided the fixed plant is built to make use of it. In this case with a pair of single-track lines, it would allow for no benefits to the whole, however.
The operation and change of orientation of the Circle Line had far more to do with the archaic nature of how that section of the Tube operated and the change in travel patterns over time than anything else.
Dan
nfitz
Superstar
In theory - perhaps with a fully automated system. But seldom achievable in practice.
The tiniest problem, always seemed to lead to the entire thing breaking down. I honestly don't think I ever visited London once, without hearing the typical "service on the Circle Line has been suspended" announcements that had become a running national joke. And not an announcement I've heard since the extension to Hammersmith. Now that they've got the outer circle running on the Overground, they've very wisely kept two break points on both sides of London, and not attempted through-running.
Does anywhere in the world successfully run a long loop, with frequent (say every 4 minute) service? Might be fine for an infrequent service that only goes every 15 minutes or so.
Haydenpoon
Active Member
Yes, Japan JR Yamanote Line.
nfitz
Superstar
Ah ... cool!
Gosh, not allowed to use seats in rush-hour ... that gives cattle car a new standard!
Kitsune
Senior Member
^ Typical Tokyo railway. Cattle operation is quite correct - I witnessed people getting shoved into the subway car during rush hour by officials in Shinjuku.
.. and honestly if joint fares ever happen they should just rebuild the Main St bridge (or convert to an underpass) and have the platforms under / over main st with a streetcar and bus connection/stop. Also .. maybe such a whacky alignment for the subway connection would not be needed.
.. and honestly if joint fares ever happen they should just rebuild the Main St bridge (or convert to an underpass) and have the platforms under / over main st with a streetcar and bus connection/stop. Also .. maybe such a whacky alignment for the subway connection would not be needed.
sacred
Active Member
It seems the 506 comes every 5 minutes, so that seems like a pretty good idea, but I think it would be good to also have a direct pedestrian connection.
With the Halls of Kipling opening up, I have to wonder if movator technology has advanced to be cheaper and more reliable than when the Spadina movator was installed.
Northern Light
Superstar
Good to know.
Have to say though; still looks cattle-car'ish.
I really like my transverse seating.
Also that lighting looks really harsh (so does TTC's in the Rockets).
I'd prefer to see that recessed and not so bright that you can count the individual specks of dust in the air.
****
Having indulged in it myself, may I note we are just a tad OTP here for a GO Construction thread.
sche
Active Member
The slowest and most cumbersome part of train’s journey is the part where it turns around at the end. This is the main limiting factor on frequency for many point-to-point lines. If the line is a circle, trains never need to turn around. Why do you think some metro systems used to build loops at the termini of lines, effectively turning a linear route into a one-way loop? (e.g City Hall Loop in NYC, Kennington Loop on the Northern Line, many lines in Paris)
The main issue with London’s Circle Line has very little to do with the fact that it was a circle, and more to do with the fact that it is interlined with the District, H&C, and Metropolitan lines, and both the District and Metropolitan lines having numerous branches. It’s a gigantic mess and undoubtedly and operational nightmare, especially considering that those lines are literally the oldest underground railway lines in the world and also used old signalling. So, if there’s a problem on any of those lines on any of those branches, the problem cascades through all the lines.
This part is just speculation, but I would also think that TfL would have tried to prioritize the other lines more than the Circle Line, since the other lines are far more important - the Circle Line is mostly just a duplication of other lines. So, when there is a problem, I would expect that they would try to make sure District Line or Metropolitan Line trains stayed more on time at the expense of delaying or suspending Circle line trains.
Finally, the extension to Hammersmith was to increase frequency and capacity to Hammersmith, since originally only the H&C served the section to Hammersmith and due to the interlining with the Circle and Met, the H&C can’t have super high frequencies. The increase in reliability probably comes from the elimination of the Circle Line through-running at Edgware, which eliminated some complexity in the complicated mess that are the London subsurface lines, as well as the implementation of new signalling along those lines.
As for examples, Wikipedia actually has an entire article listing them: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_Line
Not all are true circles, but many of them in Asia and China in particular, as well as Moscow, are.
smallspy
Senior Member
Completely incorrect. Witness the headways capable on several lines of the Paris Metro for instance - turning loops are used on most of the most frequent lines for a reason. And those aren't automated lines.
So long as each direction has a dedicated track, the headways achievable are limited by the capability of the signal system to clear blocks and from stations able to unload the crowds, not from the fixed plant at the terminals and the requirement to switch ends on the equipment.
Dan
robmausser
Senior Member
And a tunnel with moving sidewalks to Main St subway station? Right? Right?
One can dream...
Actaully, the distance between the two stations is so far I think adding a better streetcar stop, like a small loop type thing would benefit the connection between the two stations greatly.
nfitz
Superstar
As far as I'm aware, those loops are generally non-revenue with recovery time.
The main issue for frequent circular services is the lack of recovery time. So unless you schedule a 5-minute pause somewhere (as GO Transit does with through Lakeshore services at Union station), it's difficult to deal with typical operation issues.
I don't recall any circular metro lines in Paris. How do they deal with recovery time?