TheHonestMaple
Active Member
excellent troll
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
I am loathe to defend Bloomington - it's an overbuilt station most certainly. But pushing the tracks that far up the line made sense, to try to draw cars off the 404. A much more modest station was all that was needed.
The Bloomington design actually predates the current government, btw. There was a period where the previous government was endorsing all sorts of grandiose stations, mostly because stations can be built faster than tracks and they simply wanted things for photo ops. Hamilton got its share in that era, as evidenced by the Pan Am games emphasis that made West Harbour a priority. (and yes, once the games were over, ML did seem to forget about completing the work, and both the station and the triple tracking from it over thru Bayview sat half-done for years thereafter).
More recently, Ford has not shown an interest in Hamilton mostly as it was NDP territory.... the cancellation of the LRT and Minister Mulroney's cowardly backout of that public meeting certainly speaks volumes......but to make the picture complete, Hamilton Council has sent all sorts of messages over the years that it didn't want that transit either.
The recent bit of track and signalling at Aldershot at least enables more frequent service than hourly when ML is ready to offer it. The Hunter Street tunnel is a some-day proposition. I would put extensions to the Grimsby line beyond Stoney Creek as more deserving of scarce funding. Confederation could certainly be advanced faster.
So while I can't say that Hamilton has escaped a few low blows, I would not say the city has been singled out. There is certainly an opportunity that is being missed - to intensify and upscale Hamilton as a cheaper and better way to add density in the GTA than trying to force it into a reluctant Toronto. I would support a concerted effort to drive growth in Hamilton. But - be careful what you ask for - where does Hamilton stand on the yellow belt issue? Is Hamilton ready to build 4-plexes as of right?
- Paul
TheHonestMaple
Active Member
Balanced response. Thank you.
As for West Harbour, you're absolutely right. They built it, then basically completely neglected it. We're only getting tracks connecting it with the main line this summer/fall! Years later. For anyone reading this who isn't aware, trains currently have to first back out of West Harbour westbound, before they can proceed east bound towards Niagara Falls. It's hilarious bad service.
I was always in the opinion that Metrolinx would have been better offer twinning the Hunter Street tunnel, and extending the tracks eastbound towards Grimsby from there, building a station near downtown Stoney Creek. Instead of building West Harbour. But that will never happen now unfortunately.
Northern Light
Superstar
The Hunter Street rail corridor was previously lowered to allow for GO Bilevels in 1995, This apparently included work in the tunnel.
It would be instructive to know the 'then' cost, which would obviously be profoundly inflated today.,
I found a picture of the work in the open cut:
Credit is embedded as noted above. Source: https://www.railpictures.ca/upload/...-was-being-upgraded-for-go-transit-the-statio
The associated caption:
It would be instructive to know the 'then' cost, which would obviously be profoundly inflated today.,
I found a picture of the work in the open cut:
Credit is embedded as noted above. Source: https://www.railpictures.ca/upload/...-was-being-upgraded-for-go-transit-the-statio
The associated caption:
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TheHonestMaple
Active Member
yep. And it also used to have two tracks way back in the day (although the trains were obviously significantly smaller).
6ixGod
New Member
Not sure how old some folks are here, but the majority of young people (ie. late millennials after that) view Hamilton no different than how the older generations viewed Mississauga/Pickering. It’s pretty much one big urban area now. Even places like Waterloo and Peterborough are increasingly becoming part of the larger “Greater Toronto” now.
If this were the United States, “Greater Toronto” by US definitions would probably include all the places I mentioned above.
So, anything happening in Hamilton should be viewed no differently than anything happening in downtown Toronto. The entire region needs to work together to continue the regions growth.
This ain’t 1988 anymore.
If this were the United States, “Greater Toronto” by US definitions would probably include all the places I mentioned above.
So, anything happening in Hamilton should be viewed no differently than anything happening in downtown Toronto. The entire region needs to work together to continue the regions growth.
This ain’t 1988 anymore.
Northern Light
Superstar
I don't think anyone with any sense would disagree with any of that.
The issue here has solely been one of skewed 'facts'.......and utter antipathy towards anyone not from Hamilton.
Kindness and respect go alot further in discussions.
smallspy
Senior Member
This seems to be a rather common railfan trope about how the work was done to fit the GO service.
It wasn't.
The autoracks posiitioned behind the locos was the actual reason for the work (as well as, more importantly, remedial structural work) being doing in the way it was. The top of autorack is several feet taller than a BiLevel is. In fact, a BiLevel is only a small handful of inches taller than the SD40s pulling that train.
I guess it could also be noted that Hamilton has better bus service to and from it than almost any other city in the GTA.
Dan
DirectionNorth
Active Member
As a former Ottawan, I am sympathetic to the concern that the provincial government is showering the GTA in transit while ignoring the rest of the province.
However, terms like "deserve" get thrown about, and as the Rob Ford saga showed us, this is the wrong way to approach this question.
Firstly, @TheHonestMaple, West Harbour has 2WAD service - a massive win that I did not see coming even in 2020. From an ideal network planning perspective, is 2WAD service to Hamilton Centre better? Sure, but even in a reasonable cost country, CPKC doesn't want us there, and widening would still be $100s of millions, let alone at the cost of modern Canadian infrastructure. We'd be much better off funding the buses to go into the new MSF, and feeding the shiny new 2WAD service (a concern I have voiced in the past - woah, has it really been a year?)
Also, the secondary cities have to want transit (and for the record, VIVA capital funding should stop until York Region gets serious about operations). Kitchener is doing fine, though ION Phase II is 5x or more of what it should cost, but when I jokingly suggested last year that Hamilton was "recancelling" the LRT, I wasn't really joking; Ottawa is self imploding and London doesn't think bus lanes to Western is a good idea.
There is more investment coming. Confederation GO and the West Harbour tie-in is close to being a meme here on UT, but it'll happen, and the province does seem to want to fund Hamilton LRT this time around. Talking about who "deserves" transit, and using emotional arguments, takes away from a serious conversation about where the limited supply of transit money can be best put to use.
As for reverse peak service into Hamilton, I can only say that there are (urban) projects, even in Hamilton, that will receive higher ridership first - the few billions it would take for new connections into Hamilton Centre, as well as the job density for a mass-scale reverse GO service to pencil out, doesn't really exist.
And I concur - I hate it when I feel I have to defend Bloomington GO.
However, terms like "deserve" get thrown about, and as the Rob Ford saga showed us, this is the wrong way to approach this question.
Firstly, @TheHonestMaple, West Harbour has 2WAD service - a massive win that I did not see coming even in 2020. From an ideal network planning perspective, is 2WAD service to Hamilton Centre better? Sure, but even in a reasonable cost country, CPKC doesn't want us there, and widening would still be $100s of millions, let alone at the cost of modern Canadian infrastructure. We'd be much better off funding the buses to go into the new MSF, and feeding the shiny new 2WAD service (a concern I have voiced in the past - woah, has it really been a year?)
Also, the secondary cities have to want transit (and for the record, VIVA capital funding should stop until York Region gets serious about operations). Kitchener is doing fine, though ION Phase II is 5x or more of what it should cost, but when I jokingly suggested last year that Hamilton was "recancelling" the LRT, I wasn't really joking; Ottawa is self imploding and London doesn't think bus lanes to Western is a good idea.
There is more investment coming. Confederation GO and the West Harbour tie-in is close to being a meme here on UT, but it'll happen, and the province does seem to want to fund Hamilton LRT this time around. Talking about who "deserves" transit, and using emotional arguments, takes away from a serious conversation about where the limited supply of transit money can be best put to use.
As for reverse peak service into Hamilton, I can only say that there are (urban) projects, even in Hamilton, that will receive higher ridership first - the few billions it would take for new connections into Hamilton Centre, as well as the job density for a mass-scale reverse GO service to pencil out, doesn't really exist.
And I concur - I hate it when I feel I have to defend Bloomington GO.
Northern Light
Superstar
Good post.
Just to revisit what I hinted at earlier........there will be a significant improvement in service to Hamilton, likely early next year, but we'll see how many engineers are trained up.
Willybru21
Active Member
That alignment was studied in 2010 along with a few other alignments that used the CP line to Niagara:
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crs1026
Superstar
At the risk of repeating - we have to recognise just how much of the envelope we would consume for some of these much desirable but more extensive projects.
GO RER was originally said to be a $15B project (in what year’s dollars I forget, it doesn’t matter).. That is the equivalent to 100 $150M sub-projects. Sounds ample, right?
When we try to squeeze a $1B sub project into that envelope, we withdraw several of those $150M sub-projects.
I have no idea what an enlarged Hunter St tunnel would cost - there are lots of precedents for railways deepening a two-track arched tunnel to accommodate two high loaded tracks, but few of these are under a major urban area, and many are in more solid rock - but I’m speculating at least a half Billion, likely much more if one tries to connect back to the Grimsby. Should we try to accomplish that within the envelope, given that some other things will fall off the table.?
I give some credit to ML for wisely deferring the biggest single-cost items so the funds can be spread more broadly. Beyond Hamilton, Milton 2WAD is the item that people in UT most bitterly complain isn’t getting done. But realistically, pulling $2B or more out of that $15B plan to build Milton would leave a lot of other things unfunded.
ML isn’t necessarily spend its money wisely (cough Bloomington cough) but we have to accept that some things will have to wait.I would see Hunter St as one of those things.
- Paul
GO RER was originally said to be a $15B project (in what year’s dollars I forget, it doesn’t matter).. That is the equivalent to 100 $150M sub-projects. Sounds ample, right?
When we try to squeeze a $1B sub project into that envelope, we withdraw several of those $150M sub-projects.
I have no idea what an enlarged Hunter St tunnel would cost - there are lots of precedents for railways deepening a two-track arched tunnel to accommodate two high loaded tracks, but few of these are under a major urban area, and many are in more solid rock - but I’m speculating at least a half Billion, likely much more if one tries to connect back to the Grimsby. Should we try to accomplish that within the envelope, given that some other things will fall off the table.?
I give some credit to ML for wisely deferring the biggest single-cost items so the funds can be spread more broadly. Beyond Hamilton, Milton 2WAD is the item that people in UT most bitterly complain isn’t getting done. But realistically, pulling $2B or more out of that $15B plan to build Milton would leave a lot of other things unfunded.
ML isn’t necessarily spend its money wisely (cough Bloomington cough) but we have to accept that some things will have to wait.I would see Hunter St as one of those things.
- Paul
TheHonestMaple
Active Member
Well said. One thing I really hope Metrolinx prioritizes is electrified rail between Aldershot and West Harbour. I hope they'll be able to work out a deal.
Metroscapes
Active Member
A good and interesting myth disspelled.
Not to stir the pot, but my (quick) take is West Harbour should be the future of GO train service in Hamilton from an efficiency perspective. It is the direct line to/from Niagara. Someday, if we ever get serious about achieving common goals of passenger and freight in this country, the Hamilton sub should be abandoned below the brow in favour of a bypass right adjacent to Hamilton Airport (to enable direct or indirect rail-to-air freight). The lower Hamilton sub can then be used as a light rail line between some appropriate point east in the city and Bayview Junction / Aldershot. I've always thought Bayview was a good candidate for a simultaneous grade separation and GO-VIA interchange station project, but that's my pie-in-the-sky dreaming.
nfitz
Superstar
I'd disagree with it. I'm of the earlier generation and I've always viewed Mississauga as a totally unwalkable suburban hell - except perhaps in the old Port Credit area.
Central Hamilton has always been far cooler than that. That said, I don't think two central GO stations benefits the city. Especially with neither connecting well to the LRT.