[mdrejhon]

MARC replacing electric locomotive fleet with high-speed diesels

Ok, then. 40% reliability? Ouch. We better be sure to get the more reliable, time-tested electric locomotives & EMUs during GO electrification. Plenty of choices if you go by Europe and other places. Let's definitely not skimp on the reliability criteria.

 

[dowlingm]

Ok, then. 40% reliability? Ouch. We better be sure to get the more reliable, time-tested electric locomotives & EMUs during GO electrification. Plenty of choices if you go by Europe and other places. Let's definitely not skimp on the reliability criteria.

The reliability issue is why Amtrak and MARC are jointly retiring the HHP-8 locomotive at the same time as their substantially older AEM-7 fleets. Also, Metrolinx has the luxury of a new build infrastructure, rather than having to build locomotives that can operate under and switch between multiple AC frequencies never mind voltages.

 

[steveintoronto]

Metrolinx has the luxury of a new build infrastructure, rather than having to build locomotives that can operate under and switch between multiple AC frequencies never mind voltages.

I'd forgotten about that! I forget whether the NEC still has sections at (16 2/3 Hz?) but at even 25 Hz compared to modern 60 Hz, core size for motors and xfrmrs goes up geometrically each time the freq is halved, so local utility 60 Hz makes life a lot simpler for supplying the catenary as well as the traction xfrmr size.

In the event, the traction motors would be triple phase (perhaps even more) from the diesel driven alternator, and so once the transformed and rectified catenary AC is smoothed, it would be reformatted electronically to match the traction motor specs. But the traction xfrmr alone would be a fraction of the core size that was needed in the past.

Edit to Add: Getting limited hits with Googling for the subject heading, but this is excellent:
Amtrak's 25 Hz traction power system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak's_25_Hz_traction_power_system

And here's reference to Small Spy's observation:
[Only about half of the system's electrical capacity is used by Amtrak. The remainder is sold to the commuter railroads who operate their trains along the corridor.]

Ontario has even higher rates than the NorthEastern US! As to how that sits with GO/VIA/Ontario Power Gen is a good question.

 

[steveintoronto]

Aren't Electric Locomotives supposed to last significantly longer and be more reliable than diesels due to the reduced complexity and vibration?

They do, and I just tripped across a reference in the Wiki linked article above that takes that even further. I thought this to be the case, but didn't want to present it w/o reference:
[The converters will be based on a new Siemens design of multilevel direct converter known as the Sitras SFC Plus. The converter converts the three-phase AC supply voltage directly into a single-phase AC voltage with a different frequency, and no traction transformer is needed to feed the overhead contact line.[9] The project is due to be completed in 2017, and forms part of the New Jersey High Speed Rail Improvement Program (NJHSRIP) being carried out by Amtrak between Trenton and New Brunswick, N.J., on the “New Jersey Raceway.”]

*With provisos* of what I can reference at this time, the converse can also be done, eliminating the need for a traction xfrmr on-board the loco. Some form of xfrmr would be needed for control purposes, but not for traction current per-se. This would allow a massive weight-savings, and I'm skeptical even as I type this on proven examples, but the reliability would be far higher than the older technologies, not the least due to switching efficiency and being arc-less. (That being said, earlier solid state gates and devices proved very unreliable because of the spikes, IGBT are far more rugged) I'll research that and post results, as it would make the conversion of an existing diesel model locos to bi-modal much less demanding of space and chassis structure.

It amazes me that something like transit infrastructure like this isn't universally supported as a top priority.

lol...you're preaching to the converted here. There's a formula published somewhere for the relationship of Politics to Reality divided by Finance...

 

[crs1026]

Ontario has even higher rates than the NorthEastern US! As to how that sits with GO/VIA/Ontario Power Gen is a good question.

See
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/marketReports/18MonthOutlook_2015dec.pdf
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/Supply/Progress-Report-Contracted-Supply-Q32016.pdf

Ontario is projected to have growing amounts of Surplus Baseload Generation. The McGinty-era commitments to buy electricity (even if we don't need it) remain. IMHO one of the reasons that Wynne got serious about electrifying GO is that it will soak up some of the expensive electricity we ought not to be having to buy at all.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

See
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/marketReports/18MonthOutlook_2015dec.pdf
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/Supply/Progress-Report-Contracted-Supply-Q32016.pdf

Ontario is projected to have growing amounts of Surplus Baseload Generation. The McGinty-era commitments to buy electricity (even if we don't need it) remain. IMHO one of the reasons that Wynne got serious about electrifying GO is that it will soak up some of the expensive electricity we ought not to be having to buy at all.

- Paul

Excellent point! I'd forgotten about the ballast sold to industries that must guarantee a fixed parameter of use. Nuclear power gen esp dictates that, as it cannot respond to transient load like quick startups (gas, for instance).

Ironically, that point was made in the Wiki article for NYC (which to this day has a frail supply issue):

Static frequency converters
The static converters in the system were commissioned during the decade between 1992 and around 2002. Static converters use high-power solid-state electronics, with few moving parts. Chief advantages of static converters over motor generators include lower capital cost, lower operating costs, and higher conversion efficiency. The Jericho Park converter exceeds its efficiency design criteria of 95%. Major disadvantages of solid state converters include harmonic frequency generation on both the 25 Hz and 60 Hz sides, and lower overload capability.

Sunnyside Yard (Long Island City), NY – Static Inverter rated at 30 MW ordered from ABB in 1993 for $27 million. This converter is operated by Amtrak and generally runs at low continuous loading to provide peaking and reactive power support to the New York area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak's_25_Hz_traction_power_system

I'll see what I can dig out on how Ontario wants to do this, as they have had a deal with the TTC for over half a century IIRC.

PS: It has occurred to me that Quebec might be the perfect source of cheaper electricity where available. Quebec Hydro are also now experts at UHV xmssn and solid state conversion and freq reconstitution. Might it be possible for VIA to run their own feeds from across the border? Hmmmmm....

PPS: I hate myself for raising this, it's one thing that a railway take back an exquisite section of the Trans-Canada Trail....but...Ontario has made overtures about sourcing the very ample surplus of electricity that Quebec has, the problem being a very limited link at present, not able to handle what's needed. Maybe VIA could stone two birds with one kill? Host a xmssn corridor, and have their own supply for traction wherever they want to tap it off the big main! OMG...I can hear the howls of the locals on that one though.

Just downloading Paul's links now.

Edit to Add: Just found Steve Munro's thorough analysis on this, it's far too extensive to post in full here, but here's a snippet:

Summary

For all cases, the electric option remains the more expensive, but to this I raise caveats:

• The treatment of residual value in the net present value calculation artificially inflates the NPV for the electric option.
• The relative and absolute prices for electric and diesel power need to be adjusted to current and likely future values and trends. In particular, we cannot assume that both types of energy will rise in cost in the same manner over time.
• The cost of infrastructure changes at Union is no longer in the equation, and this effectively makes Case 4 the new base.
• The degree to which assumptions about the availability of second hand equipment and parts might still be valid, and the degree to which this affects the overall comparison, needs to be verified and factored into the discussion.
• The claim that this would be a three-year project from planning to implementation must be verified. We need a realistic construction projection to work backward from any “hard” dates for actual operation. In particular, we need to know whether this plan would be subject to a full-blown two-year environmental assessment.
• If the estimates in past studies are seriously flawed, why? Did GO’s consultants not understand what they were doing? If they are substantially correct, why are current claims for electrification costs so high?
• [...]

• https://stevemunro.ca/2009/06/27/how-much-will-go-electrification-cost/

 

[TransitBart]

See
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/marketReports/18MonthOutlook_2015dec.pdf
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/Supply/Progress-Report-Contracted-Supply-Q32016.pdf

Ontario is projected to have growing amounts of Surplus Baseload Generation. The McGinty-era commitments to buy electricity (even if we don't need it) remain. IMHO one of the reasons that Wynne got serious about electrifying GO is that it will soak up some of the expensive electricity we ought not to be having to buy at all.

- Paul

Ontario could always declare a 'force majeure' and put the companies we are buying from at ridiculous 'green rates' into CCAA. Something has to give or there won't be an electrified train or job left in the province. In addition to eHealth, Ornge, and general mismanagement, green energy is probably the most significant centralized planning debacle of Mr. McGuinty's tenure. Mrs. Wynne didn't stand a chance with a record of intervention like this.

 

[steveintoronto]

As projected in an earlier post: (I'd emailed this to an interested person, pardon the copied format)

A Solid-State Transformer for Interconnection between the Medium ...
repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid:3bb366d5-6f87-4636-a4a3.../download
by A SHRI - ‎Cited by 3 - ‎Related articles
A SST uses power electronic devices and a high-frequency transformer to achieve isolation ..... fact that the solid-state transformer can replace certain grid components along with the .... Locomotives and other traction systems (Figure 2.2).
[...]

The weight saving is not as great as I originally thought, everything helps, but the space saving would be dramatic.

Adding this into an existing diesel loco along with associated circuits would mean no need to lengthen body or frame. I bet Siemens are already working on this!

Addendum:

https://library.e.abb.com/public/fc192d38056fa3b3c12579f20055483b/11-17 1m211_EN_72dpi.pdf

 

[kEiThZ]

See
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/marketReports/18MonthOutlook_2015dec.pdf
http://www.ieso.ca/Documents/Supply/Progress-Report-Contracted-Supply-Q32016.pdf

Ontario is projected to have growing amounts of Surplus Baseload Generation. The McGinty-era commitments to buy electricity (even if we don't need it) remain. IMHO one of the reasons that Wynne got serious about electrifying GO is that it will soak up some of the expensive electricity we ought not to be having to buy at all.

- Paul

Do electrified trains take enough power to move a needle on the provincial level?

I'd say electric cars are probably the only thing that will really make a difference.

 

[steveintoronto]

Do electrified trains take enough power to move a needle on the provincial level?

The way to answer that is to consider how much the TTC subway cars are taking in terms of 'moving the needle'. It would be barely significant, and as Paul points out, *helpful* as a ballast load on the system. What would be more of a load is reversing the turbines at Niagara Falls to pump water up to the reservoir so that it can be stored as potential energy. The losses in doing so would render the use of trains far more an efficient use of that same energy, and ultimately a more beneficial yield to society.

I'd say electric cars are probably the only thing that will really make a difference.

I'd agree with that just by subjective deduction. It's claimed that if everyone owned an electric car, not even a fraction of them could be recharged with our present distribution system. That being said, that same fraction of the population recharging their vehicles off-peak, when rates are lowest, would make an excellent steady base load on the system, and far greater than a given number of GO and VIA electric locos. Mind you, for *daytime* base load, those same locos would help meet the minimum ballast necessary for grid system stability.

 

[Megaton327]

Do electrified trains take enough power to move a needle on the provincial level?

I'd say electric cars are probably the only thing that will really make a difference.

The full RER rollout with the planned electric service levels is quite substantial. There are going to be a lot of trains running frequently for fairly long distances with a good deal more stops+starts than today, especially with SmartTrack too. That's got to be a good bit.

I think the combination of RER, new LRTs (Hamilton, Mississauga, KW, Toronto Eglinton+Finch, Ottawa Confederation+Trillium), and Electric Vehicles (with adoption increased due to impending free overnight charging contrasted to recent gas price increases, vehicles with increased range+lower prices+faster charging, fast charging widespread deployment, increased incentives, and now semi-permanent HOV access) should hopefully have a very good effect on reducing our electricity surplus. If Via goes electric fairly soon, I think all of those ought to make a pretty huge dent.

Anyone know if any Metrolinx docs have electricity estimates in terms of usage, not price? Unfortunately I don't recall seeing any.

 

[jje1000]

What's the current status of the electrification process anyways? The website hasn't been updated post public meetings. My hope is that the last thing the Liberals do when they are inevitably kicked out of QP is get construction on this started.

This- I'm really hoping that plans are sealed into place this year.

Otherwise this will become just a piece of Liberal campaign material and nothing more.

 

[crs1026]

Do electrified trains take enough power to move a needle on the provincial level?

I'd say electric cars are probably the only thing that will really make a difference.

This is very simplistic math - a 4000 hp locomotive is about three mw at full throttle. That's roughly equivalent to 2-3 winmills..... the ones that have to turn even though there is sufficient nuclear and hydro power on line. Each of the four reactors at Darlington put out about 800 mw, so a single Go train is lost in the noise.

GO trains don't run at full throttle continuously, and if electric they can feed power back into the grid while braking. And EMU's use less power. So the average load is much lower. Nevertheless, a 70 locomotive fleet all running in peak service would amount to a quarter of a reactor at the most extreme moment.... or a whack of windmills, or as much gas power as Mc Ginty cancelled in Mississauga.

I agree, it's a small fraction of the load represented by autos. Would we be better off taking the capital for GO electrification and just give people electric cars instead? Maybe....it's an interesting question. Getting drivers out of their cars and onto diesel GO trains is still the greatest incremental energy reduction, so maybe more track and more service is better use of the capital.

- Paul

 

[TransitBart]

This is very simplistic math - a 4000 hp locomotive is about three mw at full throttle. That's roughly equivalent to 2-3 winmills..... the ones that have to turn even though there is sufficient nuclear and hydro power on line. Each of the four reactors at Darlington put out about 800 mw, so a single Go train is lost in the noise.

GO trains don't run at full throttle continuously, and if electric they can feed power back into the grid while braking. And EMU's use less power. So the average load is much lower. Nevertheless, a 70 locomotive fleet all running in peak service would amount to a quarter of a reactor at the most extreme moment.... or a whack of windmills, or as much gas power as Mc Ginty cancelled in Mississauga.

I agree, it's a small fraction of the load represented by autos. Would we be better off taking the capital for GO electrification and just give people electric cars instead? Maybe....it's an interesting question. Getting drivers out of their cars and onto diesel GO trains is still the greatest incremental energy reduction, so maybe more track and more service is better use of the capital.

- Paul

Electric cars change energy use and modality. They don't deal with the gridlock problem.

 

[dowlingm]

A 12 car consist based on Alstom Coradia X40 would draw 9600kW (800kW / car)