[nfitz]

If you're comparing EMUs with 12 car Electric Loco Trains, then yes this is a factor. However on several occasions it has been stated that the plan is to run the electric locos with very small consists (like 2 or 3 coaches long). As such, while there might be a difference in acceleration, it really shouldn't be that big to make such a difference in travel time.

2-3 coaches? On Lakeshore? Do you have a reference for that? I've seen some speculation here, but not to that degree.

I was expecting 6-car trains at a minimum.

 

[Willybru21]

I’m sure they will still be on the market when the BiLevels naturally reach the end of their life. In the meantime, nixing perfectly usable equipment strikes me as being extraordinarily shortsighted.

The first series of Bi-Levels that were built in 1976 should reach the end of their life without any further rebuilds by 2035. The newest series was built up until 2021, so going off that, theoretically the 350 newest coaches would reach the end of their lives by 2080.

I’m not saying that they should be ran that long (we aren’t VIA Rail and EMU’s are superior in every single way), l’m just pointing out how long they theoretically could last.

 

[Willybru21]

2-3 coaches? On Lakeshore? Do you have a reference for that? I've seen some speculation here, but not to that degree.

I was expecting 6-car trains at a minimum.

2-3 is super low and I highly doubt that, 4-5 is more likely.

 

[Sunnyside]

2-3 coaches? On Lakeshore? Do you have a reference for that? I've seen some speculation here, but not to that degree.

I was expecting 6-car trains at a minimum.

I could see 3 coaches- most new evidence seems to suggest higher frequencies (6-10tph) than Metrolinx originally intended (4tph/15m frequency). The only question is if you have enough locomotives to run that kind of service, which it seems like they are expecting they will. Not surprising if we are ordering enough locos to entirely supplant the core of the network as it exists today.

Also worth factoring in that diesel locos are still going to be operating on every line, shouldering the brunt of express services within the electrified service area, given they are still to be the network's backbone outside of it. There will be alot of diesels to go around at that point. So, for every few electric 3-car consists, you'd have an 8-12 car diesel consist coming from Hamilton/Niagara on the express run.

Perhaps this is part of why they want to ensure they have no conflicts to Kitchener... those diesels can and should do multiple jobs at once. Coordinating with the railroads will become key to ensuring we don't have trains just sitting around, The more consists that are operating, the better it is for everyone, I'd think.

I suppose my point is we will be car-constrained before we are locomotive-constrained. As long as capacity is increasing on the whole, everywhere, then the length of a midday electric train on LSW is not super material.

 

[TheHonestMaple]

I am steadily amazed at posters who think that just because something is “better”, we ought to give up our careful investments and buy the “better” thing just because it’s “better”.
Here’s a thought. Why don’t these bright minds write up a proposal that shows how (at today’s interest rates) it makes financial sense to sell our used bilevels (at whatever used market value you anticipate) and finance an order of the “better” ones.
Now show that the cost of financing, building, and operate these new “better” railcars will improve on the cost of retaining our existing GO fleet and running it to life end.
If such a pitch were available, some investors and lenders would already have gladly funded the new fleet and reaped the profit.
Full disclosure - I drive my autos until the bitter end, maintaining them in proper condition the full time. The limiting factor in how old my cars get before I replace them is the availability of parts. My last car was 14 when I traded it in, and I still wonder if that was too soon. Were there “better” cars on the market all that time? Certainly. But the economics of earlier replacement were not compelling.
ML’s mandate is not to have the “best” equipment available.

- Paul

lol what did I just read. Those old bi-levels were purchased at a time when they made sense, when the lines were not electrified. Once they do become electrified, the business case completely changes. Buying EMUs make perfect sense. Why on earth would you electrify the entire network, only to run equipment that isn't really optimized for it. Yes, it will cost money to replace. But the improvement to service will attract new widership and continue growth. You have your blinders on.

 

[Bojaxs]

Why on earth would you electrify the entire network, only to run equipment that isn't really optimized for it.

That would be silly. But that actually exists. This is exactly what the MBTA does. They don't own a single electric locomotive.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1557720568304123906

 

[TheHonestMaple]

That would be silly. But that actually exists. This is exactly what the MBTA does. They don't own a single electric locomotive.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1557720568304123906

I mean I know the plan is to run electric locomotives. But it only makes sense to just replace aging bi-levels with EMUs like CalTrain. And sell any existing ones to anyone who wants to buy.

 

[Bojaxs]

I mean I know the plan is to run electric locomotives. But it only makes sense to just replace aging bi-levels with EMUs like CalTrain. And sell any existing ones to anyone who wants to buy.

Mate! Did you not read the last page of this thread?

 

[TheHonestMaple]

Mate! Did you not read the last page of this thread?

Yes, some people in this forum seem to think buying EMUs is pointless and we should stick with an aging fleet just because.

 

[canarob]

Also worth factoring in that diesel locos are still going to be operating on every line, shouldering the brunt of express services within the electrified service area, given they are still to be the network's backbone outside of it.

Barrie and Stouffville will be fully electric, no?

 

[ARG1]

I mean I know the plan is to run electric locomotives. But it only makes sense to just replace aging bi-levels with EMUs like CalTrain. And sell any existing ones to anyone who wants to buy.

Who? Give us a name. Make sure you actually look at their financing/expansion plans to see that they would be willing to buy.

Yes, some people in this forum seem to think buying EMUs is pointless and we should stick with an aging fleet just because.

It would help if you addressed the actual points people gave you. Nobody here has uttered the phrase "just because".

lol what did I just read. Those old bi-levels were purchased at a time when they made sense, when the lines were not electrified. Once they do become electrified, the business case completely changes. Buying EMUs make perfect sense. Why on earth would you electrify the entire network, only to run equipment that isn't really optimized for it. Yes, it will cost money to replace. But the improvement to service will attract new widership and continue growth. You have your blinders on.

Dresden runs it's entire S-Bahn network using electric locomotives and does so just fine. Like the whole debate is just grasping at straws, EMUs are not significantly more efficient that it justified scrapping 800 or so perfectly decent bilevels, whilst spending billions on replacement EMUs.

2-3 coaches? On Lakeshore? Do you have a reference for that? I've seen some speculation here, but not to that degree.

I was expecting 6-car trains at a minimum.

It is speculative, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch. There have been numbers that suggest something as low as 5-6m headways on some lines (part of the reason why we're implementing ETCS). Considering lines like Barrie operate hourly service using just 6 cars, I don't think 2-3 cars on some trains is unreasonable.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

The original Series I or Series II BiLevels were designed to be convertible to EMUs at some point, however (as we know) that never ended up happening, and I'm almost certain that you can't do that with any of the more recent bi-levels without a ton of expensive retrofits.

We certainly have the fleet size to achieve economies of scale if a retrofit was undertaken.

 

[T3G]

I mean I know the plan is to run electric locomotives. But it only makes sense to just replace aging bi-levels with EMUs like CalTrain. And sell any existing ones to anyone who wants to buy.

Aging Bilevels? Have you actually bothered to take a look at the fleet rosters? Most of the BiLevels are less than 20 years old. And those that aren't have quite recently been refurbished (the Series I cars were finished about 6 years ago, the Series II cars are getting work now). So essentially your suggestion boils down to "I want to see an EMU in Toronto, so let's sell of all of our perfectly fine equipment that we've just sunk big money into, at a knockdown price*, to a customer that doesn't exist." Brilliant.

* Because no one is going to be buying second hand cars for full price.

 

[nfitz]

As it's unlikely that a profit-making company will be having a fire sale on the bi-levels, the biggest question is what form new equipment will take.

Presumably with the inevitable passenger growth of more frequent service, the existing fleet won't suffice.

That's where I expect we will first see EMUs.