[afransen]

I am steadily amazed at posters who think that just because something is “better”, we ought to give up our careful investments and buy the “better” thing just because it’s “better”.
Here’s a thought. Why don’t these bright minds write up a proposal that shows how (at today’s interest rates) it makes financial sense to sell our used bilevels (at whatever used market value you anticipate) and finance an order of the “better” ones.
Now show that the cost of financing, building, and operate these new “better” railcars will improve on the cost of retaining our existing GO fleet and running it to life end.
If such a pitch were available, some investors and lenders would already have gladly funded the new fleet and reaped the profit.
Full disclosure - I drive my autos until the bitter end, maintaining them in proper condition the full time. The limiting factor in how old my cars get before I replace them is the availability of parts. My last car was 14 when I traded it in, and I still wonder if that was too soon. Were there “better” cars on the market all that time? Certainly. But the economics of earlier replacement were not compelling.
ML’s mandate is not to have the “best” equipment available.

- Paul

I guess the question becomes, if we're buying new electric locomotives, would we ever not want to buy new bilevels to replace the old ones to continue to utilize those assets.

 

[adys123]

I guess the question becomes, if we're buying new electric locomotives, would we ever not want to buy new bilevels to replace the old ones to continue to utilize those assets.

There will likely come a point when certain things come up for refurbishment or retirement and service changes, when it will make sense to retire equipment. I think it'll be dependent on a critical mass, but it really boils down to cost effectiveness.

 

[cplchanb]

to put it into perspective... mind you an electric loco would have a faster acceleration vs diesel but MU is always going to beat out a push pull config

 

[robmausser]

to put it into perspective... mind you an electric loco would have a faster acceleration vs diesel but MU is always going to beat out a push pull config

EMUs are faster accelerating but it was finally admitted by the person making this clip on reddit that the diesel train had a yellow light. Our GO train bi levels accelerate way faster than this

 

[cplchanb]

EMUs are faster accelerating but it was finally admitted by the person making this clip on reddit that the diesel train had a yellow light. Our GO train bi levels accelerate way faster than this

Fair enough though if ML is to have frequent service in the long term their trains need to be able to be reliably fast. Hopefully in the nearish future we can see EMUs being ordered

 

[Chris R.]

EMUs are faster accelerating but it was finally admitted by the person making this clip on reddit that the diesel train had a yellow light. Our GO train bi levels accelerate way faster than this

I was going to say, our 12 car diesel trains accelerate wayyy faster than this.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

My 2 cents on EMU vs Non-EMU:

Since GO has so many Bi-level cars available and in superb condition, they may as well make use of them. As others have pointed out, running an electric locomotive with short consists might actually work in Metrolinx’s favour once they have their signalling systems updated to allow for short frequencies. Considering how many various powerful and fast modern electric locomotives are available in the market, there shouldn’t be much difficulty. I think the only constraint will be the number of certified engineers available to operate the locomotives.

 

[Sunnyside]

Barrie and Stouffville will be fully electric, no?

Barrie yes, Stouffville no- only to downtown Markham (Unionville GO) at first.

Though it was originally planned to be to Mount Joy, cost has presumably gotten in the way. Because MX owns the entire line, though, it is likely immaterial to extend electrified service at a later date. Many other things have been chopped from the initial scope of GO Expansion too- electric service will end at Burlington, not Aldershot, and it's up in the air exactly how much of the Barrie line will be electrified as part of the initial package.

I wouldn't worry too much about the exact endpoints of electrified service, though. While its worth a grain of salt, the RTP does indicate 15-min service (the assumed designation for electrified service) on most lines in the contiguous GTHA by 2041. So, somehow they will get tracks +wires to Hamilton, Milton, Mt Joy (maybe Stouffville- can't remember) and Mount Pleasant.

Beyond that is what's undecided- namely the Richmond Hill Line, for countless reasons; Niagara GO in its entirety (from Burlington? Aldershot? West Harbour? who knows); and the Kitchener Line... to Kitchener. Given Metrolinx owns much of it, and is addressing the gap where they don't, it may become a very significant focus in the medium term. I am also of the belief it will someday supercede LSW for the most ridership, but that's contingent on a lot.

 

[Sunnyside]

My 2 cents on EMU vs Non-EMU:

Since GO has so many Bi-level cars available and in superb condition, they may as well make use of them. As others have pointed out, running an electric locomotive with short consists might actually work in Metrolinx’s favour once they have their signalling systems updated to allow for short frequencies. Considering how many various powerful and fast modern electric locomotives are available in the market, there shouldn’t be much difficulty. I think the only constraint will be the number of certified engineers available to operate the locomotives.

It seems people think EMUs are a magic bullet, but they are highly contingent on a much tighter stopping environment, which we cannot afford in a vacuum, nevermind if we actually replaced the fleet. EMUs do not automatically mean subway-like service.

We benefit from starting with a more conventional commuter rail system. Every increase in acceleration and speed apparently means to Metrolinx that we can just add stations until the travel time is about what it is today, just with those extra stops. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as we don't start adding more park-and-rides to fulfill this purpose, but I digress.

In practice, the choice to not use EMUs means we just can't add dozens of stations to each line once electrified- only, say, half a dozen. But that's fine, because I highly, highly doubt that we could have afforded either- that many stations, or the requisite EMU trains. Forget both.

So the choice is this:
1. Spend our money on EMUs to allow for more infill stations, but build none of them.
2. Only buy electric locos, and build some infill stations too.

In any case, by the time we need EMUs or need those stations, the inverse side of this equation will need to be moved on anyway. But choosing option 2 shows a glimmer of competence from Metrolinx, or maybe its Deutschbahn, making itself apparent with these decisions- and I'd rather not invite a downsizing of GO Expansion for the sake of trains with benefits we can't realize.

 

[generalcanada]

Barrie yes, Stouffville no- only to downtown Markham (Unionville GO) at first.

Though it was originally planned to be to Mount Joy, cost has presumably gotten in the way. Because MX owns the entire line, though, it is likely immaterial to extend electrified service at a later date. Many other things have been chopped from the initial scope of GO Expansion too- electric service will end at Burlington, not Aldershot, and it's up in the air exactly how much of the Barrie line will be electrified as part of the initial package.

I wouldn't worry too much about the exact endpoints of electrified service, though. While its worth a grain of salt, the RTP does indicate 15-min service (the assumed designation for electrified service) on most lines in the contiguous GTHA by 2041. So, somehow they will get tracks +wires to Hamilton, Milton, Mt Joy (maybe Stouffville- can't remember) and Mount Pleasant.

Beyond that is what's undecided- namely the Richmond Hill Line, for countless reasons; Niagara GO in its entirety (from Burlington? Aldershot? West Harbour? who knows); and the Kitchener Line... to Kitchener. Given Metrolinx owns much of it, and is addressing the gap where they don't, it may become a very significant focus in the medium term. I am also of the belief it will someday supercede LSW for the most ridership, but that's contingent on a lot.

define "initial scope of GO Expansion"
The 2018 business case had electric service ending at burlington and electric 1tph northbound past unionville. though that service level has already been passed

 

[smallspy]

It seems people think EMUs are a magic bullet, but they are highly contingent on a much tighter stopping environment, which we cannot afford in a vacuum, nevermind if we actually replaced the fleet. EMUs do not automatically mean subway-like service.

We benefit from starting with a more conventional commuter rail system. Every increase in acceleration and speed apparently means to Metrolinx that we can just add stations until the travel time is about what it is today, just with those extra stops. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as we don't start adding more park-and-rides to fulfill this purpose, but I digress.

In practice, the choice to not use EMUs means we just can't add dozens of stations to each line once electrified- only, say, half a dozen. But that's fine, because I highly, highly doubt that we could have afforded either- that many stations, or the requisite EMU trains. Forget both.

So the choice is this:
1. Spend our money on EMUs to allow for more infill stations, but build none of them.
2. Only buy electric locos, and build some infill stations too.

In any case, by the time we need EMUs or need those stations, the inverse side of this equation will need to be moved on anyway. But choosing option 2 shows a glimmer of competence from Metrolinx, or maybe its Deutschbahn, making itself apparent with these decisions- and I'd rather not invite a downsizing of GO Expansion for the sake of trains with benefits we can't realize.

I'm not sure why you think it's an either-or proposition.

EMUs are perfectly capable of running long distances without stopping. If the fleet was large enough, and enough wire strung, there is no reason why they couldn't be used for express services as well.

Yes, locos are better suited for running between fewer stops than for many short stops because of more power, fewer axles, etc. But just because they have that disadvantage doesn't mean that EMUs automatically have the opposite disadvantage. They don't.

Dan

 

[JSF-1]

I think the only constraint will be the number of certified engineers available to operate the locomotives.

I think this issue could be remedied by removing the 2nd person up front with the engineer and reassigning/training them to be an engineer. As it stands now GO Trains operate with 2 men upfront so you could hypothetically double the number of engineers by simply making the 2nd man an engineer. Having 2 people up front makes sense for long distance journeys where there is nothing happening for tens if not hundreds of kilometres and its easy to zone out like on freight trains and VIA. But for a service like GO I don't feel its necessary since the routes are shorter and there are stops are far closer together than on say a VIA service. I don't see why GO can't go to 2 man crews with 1 engineer up front and a conductor in the middle, I mean the UP operates with a single person I believe. As well GO's fleet of locomotives are far more advanced than a lot of what CN, CP, and VIA are using (new Siemens trains not withstanding) so the on board safety systems are far better and in my mind further decrease the need for a 2nd man in the cockpit.

 

[ARG1]

Barrie yes, Stouffville no- only to downtown Markham (Unionville GO) at first.

Though it was originally planned to be to Mount Joy, cost has presumably gotten in the way. Because MX owns the entire line, though, it is likely immaterial to extend electrified service at a later date. Many other things have been chopped from the initial scope of GO Expansion too- electric service will end at Burlington, not Aldershot, and it's up in the air exactly how much of the Barrie line will be electrified as part of the initial package.

Source? The 2018 IBC had the line electrified all the way until Lincolnville.

 

[Sunnyside]

I'm not sure why you think it's an either-or proposition.

EMUs are perfectly capable of running long distances without stopping. If the fleet was large enough, and enough wire strung, there is no reason why they couldn't be used for express services as well.

Yes, locos are better suited for running between fewer stops than for many short stops because of more power, fewer axles, etc. But just because they have that disadvantage doesn't mean that EMUs automatically have the opposite disadvantage. They don't.

Dan

This is a conversation about the marginal value one gains versus the marginal cost when evaluating the two options.

I'm not trying to say EMUs have this kind of disadvantage, but that it doesn't have unspoken advantages beyond what is already known- shorter/faster acceleration times being the key one. Perhaps you can reach higher top speeds, but as far as I'm aware it's not substantial. My point is that with the state the GO network is in, there would be no noticeable difference in service to use EMUs or electric locomotives, and it would be very expensive to get the network to such a point. At least double what we are putting in now, given how expensive both stations and/or a full replacement fleet of EMUs would be (yes, and/or; neither of these is small or cheap, at all).

If we had a narrow stop spacing already, of say 2km per station rather than 4-5km, then yes, EMUs would be worth considering. Electric locos would perform measurably worse by comparison. While this is a chicken-or-the-egg type of problem, we can and are fitting plenty of stations with electric locomotives, so It'll be at least 15 years before this will even become a problem.

And side factors as well, if you're not gonna buy the "we couldn't make use of them" line:
1. We have an enormous fleet of carriages ready to go. There is nowhere for us to send them, and it is a massive number of units to order as replacement.
2. Diesels will remain in operation, with those carriages anyway. Might as well be interchangeable across the network, at least for a transition period.
3. Transit dollars are finite. We can still buy EMUs- let's just do it when we need them, instead of having them turn 20 when they finally start outperforming an electric locomotive on the network.

And to be clear, I like EMUs. If we are going to electrify additional lines, like Milton, then it would be a good opportunity to buy newer, smaller trains to make our lives easier for that purpose. But GO Expansion isn't a total new slate.

Source? The 2018 IBC had the line electrified all the way until Lincolnville.

I would have to look for you, but in short, a lot has changed since this business case. It may not be relevant at all anymore for what the service plan will be. The giveaway should be that 'trains every 15 minutes' is well out the door. I am sure other members are more familiar with how different the plans are, and where those can be seen, but I will make a point of checking when I can.

This is also OK- what is clear is that the quality of service on the electrified network will be way higher than this document stated. If the 'scoping' of the project has resulted in some trimmings for later phases like dropping Centennial-Lincolnville, we can survive till then. I'd be much more concerned if an entire corridor was axed at this point. By not biting off more than we can chew, the more quickly benefits can be realized, whenever that might be...

 

[generalcanada]

I would have to look for you, but in short, a lot has changed since this business case. It may not be relevant at all anymore for what the service plan will be. The giveaway should be that 'trains every 15 minutes' is well out the door. I am sure other members are more familiar with how different the plans are, and where those can be seen, but I will make a point of checking when I can.

This is also OK- what is clear is that the quality of service on the electrified network will be way higher than this document stated. If the 'scoping' of the project has resulted in some trimmings for later phases like dropping Centennial-Lincolnville, we can survive till then. I'd be much more concerned if an entire corridor was axed at this point. By not biting off more than we can chew, the more quickly benefits can be realized, whenever that might be...

wait im confused, You both say there has been trimmings of the project, but there hasnt at the same time?