[ARG1]

The reason this is an issue is that Queen's Park has already provided tons of money that could have gone towards electrification but ML decided to use that money to build palatial parking garages and not even charge a plug nickel to use them. This is not only shocking incompetence and an insult to transit users but also exemplifies how ML never took electrification seriously in the first place.

Which Parking Garages have they built? I'm actually interested if the current government has actually paid for any of them. All of the ones that opened this decade (at least that I can remember) were those that were planned and funded a decade ago at this point (Rutherford, Cooksville, Bloomington), and they almost certainly weren't paid for using electrification money. Heck I'm pretty sure under Ford, many parking Garages were outright cancelled. There's this article from 2016 that talks about how Del Duca announced Parking Garages for both Maple and Rutherford (slated to start construction in 2018), however as we now know, the Garage at Maple has been completely descoped and never built (I couldn't find confirmation on when it was cancelled).

Like, is there a possibility that Metrolinx on some level has mishandled the money they were given for GO Expansion? Yes, in fact I'd say they almost certainly messed something up. However, to claim that they spent it on Parking Garages doesn't even begin to pass the sniff test.

(Link to Article: https://www.yorkregion.com/news/ont... Duca, MPP for,will be built at the Maple and)

Now the damage has been done and ML cannot expect ever more funding because they blew the money they were already given. Luckily, they still have some revenue options. The first is that they should start charging for parking to bring in a constant operational revenue stream.

I don't think the government would let them do that, the same government that has an interest in maximizing GO patronage, so much so that they're subsidizing all local transit trips to GO.

Second, they should sell off ALL surface parking lots to developers for infrastructure funding and ML is sitting on a whopping amount of money thru all the land it owns around the station. This of course has the added benefit of providing much needed housing and creates TOD around the train stations themselves creating even more demand for their services. Such developments would also not have to deal with NIMBYs and endless bureaucracy because no one is going to decry the lose of ugly endless surface parking lots. The cities themselves would also love it because all these new housing units and commercial spaces would bring in tons of new property tax revenue.

This is actually a good idea, although it would have preceded by actually investing into improved local transportation. I wouldn't really have an issue with developing the parking lot at say, Weston Station, however elsewhere not so much.

Creating new charges for parking and putting the surface parking lots on the market could be something they could do tomorrow with a stroke of a pen.

That's not how that works at all. Any and all land is subject to Municipal Zoning laws, and it's the Municipalities that can determine what you can develop and where, approving whatever developments you're trying to build, and that approval process will involve months of consultations, studies, and that's before we bring up actually finding a developer for those lots. The Ford Government at this point actually has a history of forgetting that last bit: they proclaim that stations like Confederation will be built with developer money, or that they will ToC and redevelop Mimico GO - but in many of these cases the developer outright doesn't materialize, or they drop out at the last minute. The province can theoretically get around the municipality block with either MZOs, or maybe introduce legislation that outright allows Metrolinx to develop their lots whilst going around municipal regulations as you say they should, but both of those options certainly wouldn't take a day, and would require intervention by the government themselves. Whatever the case, there literally isn't a world where Metrolinx can just redevelop their lots tomorrow with just a stroke of a pen.

This just in yesterday.......................Wellington NZ has just ordered a fleet of battery trains from Alstom. The cost will be CDN$ 1 billion which includes 18 5 car trains and maintenance for 35 years. They will be replacing the current diesel powered locos currently used and will begin delivery in 2028 and finish by 2029 to meet Wellington's goal of having carbon neutral operations by 2029. They will be plying the VERY hilly terrain that takes in Wellington's suburbs.

Let's just conveniently ignore the fact that Wellington already has a fairly extensive electrified railway network with plenty of electricity related infrastructure that battery trains can, for instance, use to recharge trains. Wellington isn't some entirely diesel rail network that they're trying to electrify from scratch. This is a literal apples to oranges comparison

ML will probably proclaim that Toronto can't do it because NZ is in the Southern Hemisphere and hence batteries work differently there. Sounds nuts but it really wouldn't surprise me.

I'm going to ignore for now the fact that we know at this point that batteries will play a role in GO Electrification (the Union Station shed won't exactly be removing itself) and focus on the fact that this isn't even an unreasonable caution to take. Whilst Wellington isn't the Australian Outback, its still a relatively warm city where you'd be lucky to get negative temperatures even in the coldest of winter nights. Let's compare it to Toronto where its not uncommon for temperatures to get as low as -30, which if you know anything about batteries is both an easy way to reduce their lifespan whilst also reducing efficiency since you would need to spend extra energy keeping those batteries warm. Like yes, it is easier to justify batteries in a city like Wellington compared to Toronto, that's not even a debate.

 

[ssiguy2]

Yes, Wellington already has catenary lines but battery trains do not need to be recharged along the whole route. All they need is some charging times at Union and their terminus stations ie Burlington with maybe a station recharging between them for longer routes like Lakeshore. This is the whole point of battery trains. Also, I've never heard of Toronto getting to -30C before. With the windchill? Yes, on exceptionally rare occasions but batteries don't have to consider windchill. Germany cities get just as cold as Toronto and BEVs are already running there.

As for selling the land, I'm quite confident Ford would be willing to give a complete waiver for any of the cities especially now that he is desperate for more housing to get built and the cities would love it because they wouldn't have to deal with NIMBYs and they would be getting gobs more property tax revenue. TOD would also drive ridership and hence revenue. As for parking fees, the fact that ML doesn't charge any is beyond bizarre. The only surface parking areas that should stay and be free is for the disabled and they should keep some for Kiss N Ride areas. There shouldn't be a single parking lot where there are already parking garages and absolutely none anywhere in the city of Toronto.

If hyper-expensive, hyper-NIMBY, and hyper-bureaucratic San Francisco can start their electrification in 2017 { 3 years later than it was announced in Toronto} and get 82KM electrified with new trains delivered and tested and opened by 2024, there is absolutely NO excuse why ML couldn't have done the same. ML simply had no intention of doing it in the first place clearly exemplified by the fact that in the course of a decade, they have yet to put in a single pole in the ground and NEVER made any order for EMUs or electric locos. Why anyone would think they all of a sudden are telling the truth about their next target of 2032 is truly beyond me. If you are cool with this then no problem but just don't expect to be travelling on any electric train for any distance for at least a decade.

Question that I would like an answer to................Do you TRULY believe that ML is now telling the truth about it's newest deadline and if so why? If not, then what do YOU propose ML should do?

 

[ARG1]

Yes, Wellington already has catenary lines but battery trains do not need to be recharged along the whole route. All they need is some charging times at Union and their terminus stations ie Burlington with maybe a station recharging between them for longer routes like Lakeshore. This is the whole point of battery trains. Also, I've never heard of Toronto getting to -30C before. With the windchill? Yes, on exceptionally rare occasions but batteries don't have to consider windchill. Germany cities get just as cold as Toronto and BEVs are already running there.

That still requires them to install recharging infrastructure at those locations which would require quite a bit of work, on top of setting up the overall logistics for recharging across the entire network. This isn't exactly easy, nor would it involve "just ordering battery trains tomorrow". You have somehow deluded yourself into believing that solutions like Battery and Hydrogen are somehow panaceas that you can just slap onto existing diesel railways to get easy zero emission transport. That's not how that works.

As for selling the land, I'm quite confident Ford would be willing to give a complete waiver for any of the cities especially now that he is desperate for more housing to get built and the cities would love it because they wouldn't have to deal with NIMBYs and they would be getting gobs more property tax revenue. TOD would also drive ridership and hence revenue. As for parking fees, the fact that ML doesn't charge any is beyond bizarre. The only surface parking areas that should stay and be free is for the disabled and they should keep some for Kiss N Ride areas. There shouldn't be a single parking lot where there are already parking garages and absolutely none anywhere in the city of Toronto.

None of this is something that can be done "overnight and with a stroke with a pen". ToCs even when done by the province takes months if not years of planning, consultations, and working with developers. You can't just waiver all of the inconveniences away and plop down a dense community overnight as if you're playing Cities Skylines.

If hyper-expensive, hyper-NIMBY, and hyper-bureaucratic San Francisco can start their electrification in 2017 { 3 years later than it was announced in Toronto} and get 82KM electrified with new trains delivered and tested and opened by 2024, there is absolutely NO excuse why ML couldn't have done the same. ML simply had no intention of doing it in the first place clearly exemplified by the fact that in the course of a decade, they have yet to put in a single pole in the ground and NEVER made any order for EMUs or electric locos. Why anyone would think they all of a sudden are telling the truth about their next target of 2032 is truly beyond me. If you are cool with this then no problem but just don't expect to be travelling on any electric train for any distance for at least a decade.

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that CalTrain electrification was a project that has been in active planning since the late 90s, and was built alongside the much bigger California HSR that's been worked on since 2008. Its not like the politicians in the Bay Area woke up one day, decided they wanted to electrify Caltrain, and just started hanging up electrical poles. It took decades of study, planning, utility relactions, building substations, and much more to get their single line electrified. Oh and yes, may I remind you that Caltrain is just a single 75km line and not a network of 5 lines of up to 283km of track? The scale of work that is required is simply incomparable.

\Question that I would like an answer to................Do you TRULY believe that ML is now telling the truth about it's newest deadline and if so why? If not, then what do YOU propose ML should do?

Do I believe that they believe they can hit that deadline? Yes. Do I believe that they will reach that deadline, not necessarily. However at the very least I'm not inventing narratives in my head regarding what's going on behind closed doors. Its easy to convince yourself of anything when you just make up whatever you want to believe.

 

[Bojaxs]

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that CalTrain electrification was a project that has been in active planning since the late 90s, and was built alongside the much bigger California HSR that's been worked on since 2008. Its not like the politicians in the Bay Area woke up one day, decided they wanted to electrify Caltrain, and just started hanging up electrical poles. It took decades of study, planning, utility relactions, building substations, and much more to get their single line electrified. Oh and yes, may I remind you that Caltrain is just a single 75km line and not a network of 5 lines of up to 283km of track? The scale of work that is required is simply incomparable.

IIRC, Caltrain didn't even electrify the entire line. South of San Jose, the line still uses diesel locomotives.

 

[ARG1]

IIRC, Caltrain didn't even electrify the entire line. South of San Jose, the line still uses diesel locomotives.

Correct, that's why I only included the 75km between SF and SJ. That being said (and I'm sorry mods that this is quite off-topic), just today some Bay Area lawmakers sent a letter to California begging for 2.2B of annual Cap+Trade funding, which they claim would help contribute to, among other things, electrification of the line between SJ and Gilroy.

Will they actually get that funding? I doubt it as they're competing with plenty of other cities as well as CalHSR, so it likely won't happen that soon. Just wanted to share something I found today reading up on CalHSR.

 

[ssiguy2]

Putting up catenary infrastructure at select stations is not a difficult task. According to ML, they will be doing this anyway so why not start now? If nothing else it would show the public that they are somewhat serious about electrification as well as proving that they do actually have the knowhow to put up a pole in less than a year. Trying them out on the UPX as I suggested, would only require them to put up catenary for a whopping 160 meters.........a city block! Then they can just borrow a BEV from Alstom, test it and if it works, then go for it. If they don't like it or don't want to proceed then fine but no money nor time lost because Union/Pearson stations will now be electrified. It wouldn't cost them a plug nickel because, according to them, they are going to do it regardless. They have absolutely NOTHING to lose and, potentially, everything to gain.

This does not require an environmental review, community engagement, public consultation, a Royal Commission or any other stalling tactic they can think of because they are going to {supposedly} be doing it anyway. As I understand it, the UPX already has the basic catenary infrastructure in place. This process really could be started tomorrow if they wanted to.

 

[afransen]

Getting the requisite grid connections at stations might be difficult. Perhaps it could be mitigated with some stationary batteries on site that could trickle charge continuously at a lower power rate and dump the charge into trains while they are at the station at a high power level. Tesla's megapack can discharge at nearly 2MW, not sure how much these station-side recharges draw...

 

[Urban Sky]

Getting the requisite grid connections at stations might be difficult. Perhaps it could be mitigated with some stationary batteries on site that could trickle charge continuously at a lower power rate and dump the charge into trains while they are at the station at a high power level. Tesla's megapack can discharge at nearly 2MW, not sure how much these station-side recharges draw...

I’m not exactly sure what you are suggesting here, but unless such technology is already in use at a different rail network, you can forget about it because nobody ain’t is going to use novel technologies on such a complex network like GO’s…

 

[afransen]

I’m not exactly sure what you are suggesting here, but unless such technology is already in use at a different rail network, you can forget about it because nobody ain’t going to use novel technologies on such a complex network like GO’s…

It certainly seems we're not going to use international standard technologies, either. We might electrify one line in a decade.... give it 15 years to allow for delays and cost overruns and to fix deficiencies.

It is rumoured that the Stalder FLRT Akku B-EMU can charge at 1-1.5 MW. That can be satisfied by a single stationary energy storage product like Tesla Megapack (a shipping container sized energy storage device). Neither rapid charging nor stationary battery storage are all that new, although neither field is as mature as they will be in 10 years. Any time you have a low duty cycle heavy electrical load, you should consider using batteries to buffer the draw from the grid so reduce the peak demand and the cost of the connection (capital and ongoing).

 

[dowlingm]

IIRC, Caltrain didn't even electrify the entire line. South of San Jose, the line still uses diesel locomotives.

Because they don’t own the track. UP does. No doubt if DB was running Caltrain ops, they would blame Caltrain for the lack of ambition in not somehow persuading UP to put up wires anyway

 

[wheelloader]

It certainly seems we're not going to use international standard technologies, either. We might electrify one line in a decade.... give it 15 years to allow for delays and cost overruns and to fix deficiencies.

It is rumoured that the Stalder FLRT Akku B-EMU can charge at 1-1.5 MW. That can be satisfied by a single stationary energy storage product like Tesla Megapack (a shipping container sized energy storage device). Neither rapid charging nor stationary battery storage are all that new, although neither field is as mature as they will be in 10 years. Any time you have a low duty cycle heavy electrical load, you should consider using batteries to buffer the draw from the grid so reduce the peak demand and the cost of the connection (capital and ongoing).

I once watched a youtube clip, who drives a FLRT BEMU (2 cars units?, 116 seats, 200 capacity). He mentioned ~80-100kwh traction power consumption from battery (about 45 to 50% depletion) for distance of 160km leg, which has 80km non-electrified track. The layover time at the terminus station usually is enough to charge the battery back.

 

[Urban Sky]

Again, have we been publicly given any reason to believe that Ontario would have appetite to adopt a novel electrification technology which has not yet been implemented at any comparable scale? Because if it hasn’t, we should first identify concrete applications elsewhere in the world and discuss their applicability rather than endlessly debating concepts which don’t scale particularly well. I mean, we can of course charge our 12-car trains at every single/major station, but how many loading cycles does that cause annually for each battery and how much productive time do we lose while charging?

 

[ssiguy2]

^^^ Battery trains are not "novel" in any way shape or form. They have been around for over a century. The only difference now is that they are practical due to the advancements in battery technology. They are exactly the same vehicles as standard EMUs but they just carry bigger batteries. This is why every major train manufacturer in the world now offers BEMU alternatives to their standard EMUs.

We are also not talking about the mega 12 car DD boats that GO currently runs. We are talking about standard sized single level EMUs probably with 4 or maximum 5 car trains. They would also not be for the long haul routes but rather the {originally named} RER sections. Ontario doesn't have to the appetite for such an endeavor because it wouldn't cost a cent. Again, use the UPX and just electrify Union & Pearson {which they say they are already going to do} and get a BEMU from Alstom and test it. If they decide it's not appropriate, then they can return to their catenary lies as per normal.

Using the UPX as a BEMU trial is one of those classic examples of "nothing to lose and everything to gain".

 

[APTA-2048]

Using the UPX as a BEMU trial is one of those classic examples of "nothing to lose and everything to gain".

What off-the-shelf EMU available to run in Canada has a boarding height that matches the UP Express? Which one also has the same door locations as the Nippon Sharyo DMUs? They probably need to be the same to serve Union and Pearson. I can’t imagine it working otherwise.

 

[cplchanb]

What off-the-shelf EMU available to run in Canada has a boarding height that matches the UP Express? Which one also has the same door locations as the Nippon Sharyo DMUs? They probably need to be the same to serve Union and Pearson. I can’t imagine it working otherwise.

none. maybe the hitachi units that new york uses but those are full EMUs and the doors are for sure different. however i would imagine that configuring the doors along the platform screen would be quite easy as they are all standard size window wall panels that can be moved around.