[DavidH]

So GO has launched the redesign of their website.
They now proudly state they are "a division of Metrolinx".

GO has been branding themselves that way for months now, including in advertising and informational signage. It's nothing new.

What I can't figure out is why they are still saying that they are formally the "Greater Toronto Transit Authority". According to the Metrolinx Act, "Greater Toronto Transit Authority" = "Metrolinx".

 

[andomano]

I passed by the Bombardier plant up here in Thunder Bay last night, and there were 4 new bilevels outside the factory, three without numbers, and one with the #2736.
There are more photos in the following thread (on UT) if anyone is interested.

http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?11272-New-GO-BiLevel-VIIs-%28From-T-Bay%29&p=366853#post366853

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The info boards (PDF) have been posted for the Niagara expansion. Nothing really new other than potential ridership numbers near the end - no surprise that Niagara Falls is very low, although Grimbsy being higher than St. Catharine's seems strange.

It does seem like the entire town of Grimsby works in Burlington or Oakville or other inbound-to-Union spots along the GO line. Where do people in St. Catharines work? It also depends on how many stations are eventually added...some people in places like Beamsville/Vineland/Stoney Creek might use Grimsby, which, combined, means the catchment area could compare much more favourably with St. Catharines.

I assume they're assuming the initially projected numbers are mainly commuters, who are predictable. The next step would be to lure post-secondary students, daytripping shoppers, CNE/SkyDome-bound visitors, etc., and while this group of riders could end being very large, they're less predictable. The numbers do seem very conservative...80 peak period riders from Niagara Falls in 2016 rising to only 110 in 2031?

 

[k10ery]

It does seem like the entire town of Grimsby works in Burlington or Oakville or other inbound-to-Union spots along the GO line. Where do people in St. Catharines work? It also depends on how many stations are eventually added...some people in places like Beamsville/Vineland/Stoney Creek might use Grimsby, which, combined, means the catchment area could compare much more favourably with St. Catharines.
1?

Grimsby is a bedroom community for Hamilton, whereas few in St Kitts and Niagara Falls commute out of the region:

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...&Temporal=2006&THEME=76&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

So the projections look about right, unless you think there is a big demand on the short haul between NF and StC. And why should the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority waste its time worrying about that?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Grimsby is a bedroom community for Hamilton, whereas few in St Kitts and Niagara Falls commute out of the region:

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...&Temporal=2006&THEME=76&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

So the projections look about right, unless you think there is a big demand on the short haul between NF and StC. And why should the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority waste its time worrying about that?

Yes, I know Grimsby is a bedroom community for the places inbound to Union...you quoted me saying this. I'm not questioning the projections, I was suggesting to Swarley why St. Catharines might generate fewer trips than Grimsby even though it has many more people. Across the board, though, the Lakeshore extension projections are conservative - we're talking about 2031, by the way, not today - but since GO expands so incrementally, there's no need to inflate the numbers to sell the lines and then worry about how these riders will materialize. If two trains aren't enough, just add a third. Simple. Need to add a station at Beamsville? Done.

 

[jn_12]

Broken record here - Those numbers are right. Grimsby has far more commuting potential than St Catharines, most because people in St Catharines work in the region. The concept of commuting is foreign in Niagara and most people don't understand how or why people in the GTA do it. Technically people in the various communities in Niagara do commute outside their city but only to neighbouring communities within Niagara, but because you can quite literally go from downtown Welland to downtown St Catharines in 10 minutes it's not really thought of as a commute.

If GO wants to have an impact in Niagara it has to be the inter-city provider of service in the region with its GO buses and have it link to the train in Niagara Falls and St Catharines. This service is needed immensely and it needs to be provided by the province as the municipalities can't do it (they've been talking about it for decades and it will never happen due to political reasons).

 

[k10ery]

Yes, I know Grimsby is a bedroom community for the places inbound to Union...you quoted me saying this. I'm not questioning the projections...

You have only to ask

Where do people in St. Catharines work?

and you shall be answered!

But seriously let's not try too hard to make those numbers work. Let's just name it the Pork Barrel Express and go back to waiting for the 501 to show up...

 

[Ed Drass]

What happened to cost-benefit analysis? Niagara Falls news story

Barrelling, indeed -- sorry I haven't been following this thread. Can new service to NF possibly rank above expanded service inside the GTA when it comes to value-for-investment?

http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2433874

Eight GO trains possible under preliminary plan
TRANSIT: Summer experiment was successful
Posted By RAY SPITERI , REVIEW STAFF WRITER
Posted 11 hours ago


Commuters in Niagara Falls could see as many as eight rush-hour trains commuting daily between Toronto's Union Station and the Falls, if GO Transit's proposal for expanded service into the region comes to fruition.

Ontario's mass inter-city transit agency held a public information session at Club Italia Wednesday evening. GO officials and study consultants met with locals, showing them around a series of poster boards that highlighted GO's study into how regular commuter rail service could come to Niagara by 2016.

Preliminary ideas include possible new stations in Grimsby, Beamsville and Vineland. Current VIA station sites in Niagara Falls and St. Catharines are also named as possible GO train stops.

"No decisions have been made about potential routes and station locations for this proposed rail service to the Niagara region," GO spokeswoman Emilia Marceta said.

Another sesion is scheduled for tonight in Grimsby.

GO Transit announced last fall it was studying the potential for long-coveted commuter rail service into Niagara.

GO started an environmental assessment shortly after the conclusion of a successful summer experiment that saw trains run between Toronto, St. Catharines and Niagara Falls on weekends and holidays.

Niagara Falls resident Adam Kotyk said he likes GO's preliminary plan.

"I think it's an awesome idea and it needs to be here," said Kotyk. "It's going to boost the economy. As far as tourism goes, there's a lot of people from the Greater Toronto Area that want to come down here and see the falls, do the wine industry thing and it's an easy means for them to get out of the city."

Jim Bredin, also of Niagara Falls, said he welcomes more public transit because "the status quo won't do.

"Right now ... it's cheaper for you and me to drive to Toronto than it is for us to individually take a bus, and that's not right."

 

[TOareaFan]

Barrelling, indeed -- sorry I haven't been following this thread. Can new service to NF possibly rank above expanded service inside the GTA when it comes to value-for-investment?

http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2433874

Eight GO trains possible under preliminary plan
TRANSIT: Summer experiment was successful
Posted By RAY SPITERI , REVIEW STAFF WRITER
Posted 11 hours ago



Jim Bredin, also of Niagara Falls, said he welcomes more public transit because "the status quo won't do.

"Right now ... it's cheaper for you and me to drive to Toronto than it is for us to individually take a bus, and that's not right."

These are the kinda quotes that scare me.......not only is the expectation that signficant public funds be spent on getting those 8 trains a day going....there is an expectation of cheap fares when the service is introduced. Currently GO's one way train fare to Hamilton is $9.25...what should it be from NF? Double? So would that person accept that a $37 round trip is now cheaper than driving?

I fear that we are not only irrationally prioritizing the introduction of a NF service....once it gets here we will be forever oversubsidizing the few people who use it.

 

[RedRocket191]

It's $15.90, but I don't think it's about "cheaper" per say.

There's no question that people have a better response to train service than to bus service, no matter how irrational I think that is. Someone from Niagara Region might not pay $16 for a commuter bus for whatever reason, but they are more likely to pay that much for a train.

 

[Mulder]

These are the kinda quotes that scare me.......not only is the expectation that signficant public funds be spent on getting those 8 trains a day going....there is an expectation of cheap fares when the service is introduced. Currently GO's one way train fare to Hamilton is $9.25...what should it be from NF? Double? So would that person accept that a $37 round trip is now cheaper than driving?

I fear that we are not only irrationally prioritizing the introduction of a NF service....once it gets here we will be forever oversubsidizing the few people who use it.

It's not always about what's cheaper, If that person who travels from NF to Toronto saves about an hour of travel time because they were not stuck in traffic. That's an extra hour doing something they want to be doing.

It's the same reason why I take the 407 when I goto Hamilton. Sure it's not the cheapest , but it saves me sometimes upwards of 20+ minutes each way.

 

[TOareaFan]

It's not always about what's cheaper, If that person who travels from NF to Toronto saves about an hour of travel time because they were not stuck in traffic. That's an extra hour doing something they want to be doing.

It's the same reason why I take the 407 when I goto Hamilton. Sure it's not the cheapest , but it saves me sometimes upwards of 20+ minutes each way.

The quote that "scared" me though was specifically about cost. He said nothing about time. That person (a very small sample size, I know) is expecting a method of travelling to Toronto that will be cheaper than the car...that is his measure of whether it makes sense.....and I bet you he is not alone!

 

[TOareaFan]

It's $15.90, but I don't think it's about "cheaper" per say.

There's no question that people have a better response to train service than to bus service, no matter how irrational I think that is. Someone from Niagara Region might not pay $16 for a commuter bus for whatever reason, but they are more likely to pay that much for a train.

I much prefer rail to bus. The main reason I am not an every day user of GO is that most nights (probably 19 out of 20) I cannot leave my office to catch that last train home to Brampton.....it may seem irrational to you but I just figure if I am gonna be stuck in traffic, I would rather be stuck in traffic in my own car than on a bus.....but, again, that person I quoted was not talking about mode of transport nor speed of transport...he was talking about cost.....and at $15.90 each person each way that would be $63.60 for a couple of people to come to Toronto for the day (return trip)......pretty sure most cars (including parking) can do it cheaper!....so when this service is launched...expect a barrage of comments/stories that go like this "of course it is underused....look at the price....I can drive cheaper.....if they could just price it reasanably I would use it for sure"

 

[RedRocket191]

To be honest, I think you're going to hear that argument at any price point. Countless people argue that it is cheaper to drive than take the TTC, but one cannot argue that a year on the TTC is only about $1500 while the cost of owning a car is around $8000 minimum.

And while I do think that not wanting to take the bus is irrational, I accept it as a fact of life.

 

[jn_12]

People don't commute from St Catharines/Niagara Falls, so you have to look at this as a tourism venture. There's a need for daily service to Niagara between April and October because tourists don't travel just on weekends. Hell, when you're a tourist, everyday is a weekend. There needs to be a stronger link between Niagara Falls and Toronto than what VIA offers (which is very little) and while I appreciate that Coach Canada and Greyhound do a good job servicing the area, Union Station is a much better hub for tourists to depart from and arrive to than the current coach terminal at Bay/Dundas. Furthermore, GO gives people the advantage of bringing their bike, which is becoming a growing trend for people making trips to Niagara.