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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Urban Sky
Senior Member
I don't think there are any facilities to layover in London...
Garuda
Active Member
The crew who took the train to London in the evening would stay at a hotel and will be the crew. for the early morning trip back. It’s standard with crews on airlines to remote areas and VIA does the same thing with its crew in White River.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
Track 3 could be used for over night layovers. But someone said the voltage is not the same as VIA and they would need to install separate wayside boxes for GO.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Which is unlikely to happen as long as this service is considered just a trial...
ssiguy2
Senior Member
London is investing in it's BRT who's downtown section is already under construction and London has above average ridership and service than similar sized Canadian cities. Unfortunately that doesn't do any good for the 350,000 who live in her commuter shed outside the city boundaries.
A GO bus service serving greater London would be well patronized due to it being not much slower than driving. This GO train however is a Toronto centric service which no one will use. Some Torontonians may not see the problem because they can't fathom the idea that anyone in the province would want to go anywhere but Toronto. If Toronto transit was designed by politicians in Sudbury all hell would break lose but somehow Londoners are suppose to be cool with Toronto telling them what they need and how to implement it.
As far as this notion that ML helps provide service in Hamilton and even KW and so London should as well is absurd and a false analogy. Unlike KW, Niagara, Oshawa, or even Hamilton, London is a regional centre. It is completely distinct from Toronto unlike those other cities. London, like all of SWO, is very much it's own region and London is the "capitol" and hence any service serving the area must be London centered. The people of ST/Wood/Ing/Strath/Stratford probably make 30X as many trips to London as they do to Toronto and the service should reflect that reality. Even Londoners themselves don't go to Toronto very often because London offers 99% of everything they need in their daily lives.
When it come to a London GO service, Toronto shouldn't even be part of the conversation.
A GO bus service serving greater London would be well patronized due to it being not much slower than driving. This GO train however is a Toronto centric service which no one will use. Some Torontonians may not see the problem because they can't fathom the idea that anyone in the province would want to go anywhere but Toronto. If Toronto transit was designed by politicians in Sudbury all hell would break lose but somehow Londoners are suppose to be cool with Toronto telling them what they need and how to implement it.
As far as this notion that ML helps provide service in Hamilton and even KW and so London should as well is absurd and a false analogy. Unlike KW, Niagara, Oshawa, or even Hamilton, London is a regional centre. It is completely distinct from Toronto unlike those other cities. London, like all of SWO, is very much it's own region and London is the "capitol" and hence any service serving the area must be London centered. The people of ST/Wood/Ing/Strath/Stratford probably make 30X as many trips to London as they do to Toronto and the service should reflect that reality. Even Londoners themselves don't go to Toronto very often because London offers 99% of everything they need in their daily lives.
When it come to a London GO service, Toronto shouldn't even be part of the conversation.
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
Yawn, why don't you at least try to see the brightside of what you prematurely dismiss as a useless service rather than whining endlessly about how it isn't what the city you grew up in deserves?
If London ever sees a GO bus dumping commuters off in its city center every morning, then it will be only because of that measly Toronto-focused GO train which suddenly placed London within GO's service map and mandate...
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ericmacm
Active Member
I do agree that London is it's own independent regional centre for Southwestern Ontario and should be viewed as such, but this train is a very good thing and will almost certainly be a success.
If there is one thing that London is very bad at, it is making the right decisions related to transportation projects. It has completely failed at coming up with adequate major transportation solutions on its own - with the best examples being the lack of a ring road system, and only building 3 of 5 segments of a BRT system that should have been an LRT in the first place. What London needs right now is a larger body of influence to drag it in the right direction, effectively a kick in the pants, and Metrolinx is doing exactly that with this GO Train. I can almost guarantee that this is going to significantly change the discussion on rapid transit in London and Southwestern Ontario as a whole.
It doesn't matter right now that London is on the end of a 4-hour rail commute to Toronto, being run by a Toronto-centric service. What matters is that there is going to be reliable rail service that will move people between Kitchener and London in a reasonable amount of time, in addition to giving people the option to go further into the GTA, should they choose to. The bigger picture in the reasoning for this extension will appear more evident over time.
If there is one thing that London is very bad at, it is making the right decisions related to transportation projects. It has completely failed at coming up with adequate major transportation solutions on its own - with the best examples being the lack of a ring road system, and only building 3 of 5 segments of a BRT system that should have been an LRT in the first place. What London needs right now is a larger body of influence to drag it in the right direction, effectively a kick in the pants, and Metrolinx is doing exactly that with this GO Train. I can almost guarantee that this is going to significantly change the discussion on rapid transit in London and Southwestern Ontario as a whole.
It doesn't matter right now that London is on the end of a 4-hour rail commute to Toronto, being run by a Toronto-centric service. What matters is that there is going to be reliable rail service that will move people between Kitchener and London in a reasonable amount of time, in addition to giving people the option to go further into the GTA, should they choose to. The bigger picture in the reasoning for this extension will appear more evident over time.
drum118
Superstar
What being built in London at this time is not an BRT, but an express line with curb lane for a short section. The rest is a mix street with curb pocket for parking.
There is a small pocket of office workers with retail in poor sharp in the core and was this way before COVID. A few new residential towers are being built now along with one to become the tallest building in the core.
There is room to built an small layover yard for a few L12, but mostly need L4 between London and Kitchener
Tracks are still in place to service Godrich, St Thomas, Sarnia, Woodstock, Windsor and Kitchener with L4 from/to a London Hub. As noted, a DMU as a 2/3 car train could be use.
There is no real fast route to get from/to the 401 and London since London was off the beaten path from Windsor-Toronto. There been talk about building something, but only talk so far and should remain that way. Other than upgrading Wellington to 6 lanes, there not much you can do to get an faster route without tearing a hell a lot down to do it.
Is it bad to see 90 minute-3 hour headway service to/from Toronto for off peak service which is better than none??
When going to London with no need to stop in the London core, use Wonderland off the 402 to the north end of the city and it can be bad between Commissioner and Sarina. The plan call for widen Wonderland to 6 lanes that was out for an EA before COVID and no idea where that stands today. CN overpass will have to be length to get over the 6/7 lanes road and not going to be easy to do it.
ONEX BUS (Megabus) service is now offering 6 trips a day to Toronto or every 4 hours based on a 24 hour clock.
There is a small pocket of office workers with retail in poor sharp in the core and was this way before COVID. A few new residential towers are being built now along with one to become the tallest building in the core.
There is room to built an small layover yard for a few L12, but mostly need L4 between London and Kitchener
Tracks are still in place to service Godrich, St Thomas, Sarnia, Woodstock, Windsor and Kitchener with L4 from/to a London Hub. As noted, a DMU as a 2/3 car train could be use.
There is no real fast route to get from/to the 401 and London since London was off the beaten path from Windsor-Toronto. There been talk about building something, but only talk so far and should remain that way. Other than upgrading Wellington to 6 lanes, there not much you can do to get an faster route without tearing a hell a lot down to do it.
Is it bad to see 90 minute-3 hour headway service to/from Toronto for off peak service which is better than none??
When going to London with no need to stop in the London core, use Wonderland off the 402 to the north end of the city and it can be bad between Commissioner and Sarina. The plan call for widen Wonderland to 6 lanes that was out for an EA before COVID and no idea where that stands today. CN overpass will have to be length to get over the 6/7 lanes road and not going to be easy to do it.
ONEX BUS (Megabus) service is now offering 6 trips a day to Toronto or every 4 hours based on a 24 hour clock.
allengeorge
Senior Member
I believe that plan was recently nixed.
London has done incredibly little to foster a transit-oriented culture - and disappointingly so, given the large number of hospitals, Fanshawe and Western all in the city.
smallspy
Senior Member
Crews will be based out of Kitchener.
The first crew will get to the yard very early in the morning, deadhead to London, operate to Toronto, operate back to Kitchener and then be done for the day.
The second crew will apparently take the train bound for London over in Kitchener, and operate west the rest of the way to Kitchener. From what I'm hearing, they will be forced to sit there for a couple of hours before they are cleared to deadhead home to Kitchener and tie up their train.
Dan
drum118
Superstar
Transit sucks with 30+ minute headway with a number of hill and dale routes running around trying to find riders in low density areas. Lack of full e-w, n-s routes doesn't help.
For a city of this size, transit is for a city haft its size.
Like most places, you can't built tall towers and the ones that do get built, 20 max to 7s with most under 20.
Haven't ridden a number of routes, trips are too long. From where I am in London, its a 32 minute trip on a hill and dale route where it should be 20 minutes or less on a grid route to the city core that runs every 32 minutes.
There is a lot of land in the city centre for transit-oriented culture that can be develop. With GO now running to London it may happen there and other locations.
As for Wonderland, had issues with the EA and if it has been kill, its a good thing as it was to feed the big boxes at the south end that has been setup for more expansion. Speed on it is mostly 60 km, but traffic moves at 70+ most of the time with a large number at 90+
crs1026
Superstar
That's a lot of deadheading!
But at least those deadheads in the wee hours aren't being represented as revenue trains. One of the benefits of COVID (and yes that's a perverse thing to say) is that ML had to abandon its juiced growth-in-revenue-seat-miles statistics, because the drop in service during the pandemic has made that whole metric moot. That has put an end to seat-miles on deadheads being miscounted as revenue seat-miles.
- Paul
ssiguy2
Senior Member
There is nothing "wrong" with GO to Toronto and any service is better than none.
My point is that GO should have started as being London centered to provide service to her commuters first and not the other way around.
My point is that GO should have started as being London centered to provide service to her commuters first and not the other way around.
Nomad_87
Active Member
That’s why I wanted at the bare minimum to have a train in the opposite direction during peak hours (Toronto-London in the morning and London-Toronto in the evening). Connecting Guelph, KW, Stratford and London would be amazing. Also St. Thomas-London commuter service via the Talbot Spur is something I am surprised hasn’t been proposed yet.