[crs1026]

One question though while It’s on my mind; what are the limitations to hourly service to Kitchener right now? Obviously it’s trackage rights/ownership, but are there expansion plans to add trips along the route? I see talk of areas near Guelph, Action and Georgetown, but hardly Kitchener, which imo is the big-ticket ridership node. My impression is that the service being run right now is the maximum they physically can, which tells me the infrastructure is fairly lacking atm. Just curious how this is going to change.

The rule of thumb for hourly service is : Trains running hourly in both directions will need to pass each other every half hour.

As of today, there is effectively nowhere for trains to meet west of Bramalea.

So, basically - when a GO train departs westbound from Bramalea, it has to go all the way to Kitchener and then come all the way back before the following GO train can head west from Bramalea.

By timetable it's 1 hour 12 minutes from Bramalea to Kitchener. So, at bare minimum, and allowing even a small margin for turnback at Kitchener, in theory the best that Ml can do is run on headways of about 2.5 hours. That is only possible outside of peak hours - the peak service removes any possibility for that spacing during rush hours.

Things will change for the better once the sidings at Breslau and Guelph (which are being worked on already) are added. A siding at Acton is planned but still under procurement. That will allow some single counter-peak trains, but it will not get GO to hourly in both directions. It seems that a passing track may be added at Bramalea proper, which shortens the spacing between meeting points a bit.

Georgetown to Bramalea is 22 minutes by current timetable. Guelph to Georgetown is 28 minutes. In theory, if we had passing tracks at just the Guelph Georgetown and Bramalea platforms, we would have enough passing capacity for hourly service, with GO using only the same one track from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant as at present, and adding a "jog" on CN from Mount Pleasant to Georgetown. That added "jog" includes crossing their line from north to south or vv every hour each way. It's unlikely CN would allow that, although once there is firm commitment to build a flyover they might allow some added trains in the meanwhile while the flyover is under construction.

I seem to remember Phil Verster claiming that he was engaged virtually full time in negotiating with CN, and that clear path to an agreement seemed to have emerged once the "Missing Link" proposal was abandoned. That was in what..... 2017? I really wonder why an agreement with CN isn't in the bag already. And actually, I would be happier if ML would move immediately to add the fourth track through Brampton to the plans, rather than deferring it to a later date. Just do it and get it over with.

- Paul

 

[Streety McCarface]

Route 30 from Bramalea is the fastest GO bus route to Kitchener-Waterloo, and a better connection from Toronto and York Region than Square One, especially with the new Bramalea Station configuration. Even weekend rail service to Mount Pleasant and regular Route 30 connections would be a big improvement.

But its not at all
Subway connections will always be superior to GO connections, especially on Weekends.

 

[Streety McCarface]

This makes no sense, Brampton and Bramalea are important connections for people arriving from the west, due to their regional bus services. If you want to skip something, skip Mount Pleasant. And besides, I don't see how you can claim that this schedule results in crowding west of Bramalea when it has more capacity than the current schedule and hasn't even come into effect yet.

Trains (at least on Wednesday prior to the schedule change) were standing room only east of Mount Pleasant on certain trains. You could instead run the train express through Mt. Pleasant and Bramalea, or Mt Pleasant and Brampton, but you risk interfering with existing service more (you could schedule following trips from Kitchener closer, but it still doesn't help the counter peak trains, especially when there's freight).
The suggestion is for one or two super-express trains from Kitchener, speeding up service for Kitchener, Guelph, Acton, Georgetown, and SOME Brampton commuters (particularly those who have the longer commute downtown). The suggestion was not to make all express trips from Kitchener skip most of Brampton.

 

[Willybru21]

It absolutely does. Clearly GO has enough staff to run lots of trains at the same time (rush hour). We’ve had lots of rumours of new services in this thread, such as: weekend Mount Pleasant to Union hourly, Bramalea to Union half hourly, sporadic weekend Kitchener service, West Harbour half hourly, and a return of 15 min service on the LSW and LSE lines (Oakville to Pickering).

We also heard rumours of some sort of limited all day service on the Milton and Richmond Hill lines pre-COVID.

I hope some of these rumours translate to real world service soon. Maybe they're just rumours, time will tell!

The Alstom worker I know says that there’s still a shortage of CSA’s, but he never mentioned a shortage of engineers.

 

[ShonTron]

But its not at all
Subway connections will always be superior to GO connections, especially on Weekends.

I read this three times and have no idea what you are arguing.

 

[Bordercollie]

The rule of thumb for hourly service is : Trains running hourly in both directions will need to pass each other every half hour.

As of today, there is effectively nowhere for trains to meet west of Bramalea.

So, basically - when a GO train departs westbound from Bramalea, it has to go all the way to Kitchener and then come all the way back before the following GO train can head west from Bramalea.

By timetable it's 1 hour 12 minutes from Bramalea to Kitchener. So, at bare minimum, and allowing even a small margin for turnback at Kitchener, in theory the best that Ml can do is run on headways of about 2.5 hours. That is only possible outside of peak hours - the peak service removes any possibility for that spacing during rush hours.

Things will change for the better once the sidings at Breslau and Guelph (which are being worked on already) are added. A siding at Acton is planned but still under procurement. That will allow some single counter-peak trains, but it will not get GO to hourly in both directions. It seems that a passing track may be added at Bramalea proper, which shortens the spacing between meeting points a bit.

Georgetown to Bramalea is 22 minutes by current timetable. Guelph to Georgetown is 28 minutes. In theory, if we had passing tracks at just the Guelph Georgetown and Bramalea platforms, we would have enough passing capacity for hourly service, with GO using only the same one track from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant as at present, and adding a "jog" on CN from Mount Pleasant to Georgetown. That added "jog" includes crossing their line from north to south or vv every hour each way. It's unlikely CN would allow that, although once there is firm commitment to build a flyover they might allow some added trains in the meanwhile while the flyover is under construction.

I seem to remember Phil Verster claiming that he was engaged virtually full time in negotiating with CN, and that clear path to an agreement seemed to have emerged once the "Missing Link" proposal was abandoned. That was in what..... 2017? I really wonder why an agreement with CN isn't in the bag already. And actually, I would be happier if ML would move immediately to add the fourth track through Brampton to the plans, rather than deferring it to a later date. Just do it and get it over with.

- Paul

The simple thing to do would be to connect that yard track in Georgetown to the main line and connect it to CTC territory.

 

[DVtoClear]

The simple thing to do would be to connect that yard track in Georgetown to the main line and connect it to CTC territory.

It's really mindboggling to me that this hasn't been done already.

In similar news, it looks like the Bramalea trains are running a mix of 6 and 12 coach consists. The first few days of those trains has not shown them as a success. It seems the trains are using the same platforms at Union resulting in delays getting out in the afternoon.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I read this three times and have no idea what you are arguing.

The 25, 25B, 25C, and 25D were supposed to be extended to Kipling. That would be far better than serving Bramalea for the majority of commuters/Students
The 25F served 407 station. Again, far preferable to Bramalea.
Those subway connections are better than the service provided to Bramalea. Most people taking the GO bus aren't actually going to Union Station.

 

[nfitz]

25F was great - so convenient to get to the subway from the Waterloo ION streetcar. But it only ran on Friday afternoon.

 

[urbancog]

didn’t the yard track that serves the north platform that currently deadends recently (matter of weeks) get connected into the mainline?

Unfortunately no. This photo, from Wednesday, shows there's still a single track exiting Georgetown GO to the west. Extending the line on the north side of the island platform would sever the only accessible route to the platform.

Question: would installing one signal (facing west & just beyond the one controlling westwards platform exit) resolve the slow "rule 105" speed in from Silver junction?

 

[crs1026]

Question: would installing one signal (facing west & just beyond the one controlling westwards platform exit) resolve the slow "rule 105" speed in from Silver junction?

What would be needed is to signalize the section of track between the signal visible in the photo (which governs westward trains) and the signal on the eastside of the platform governing eastward movements out of the platform.

The simple part of that is just to make it possible for the CTC to detect an occupancy in that section. At the moment, trains fall off the CTC plant when they arrive at the platform. (The RTC currrently sees a "tag" on their console reminding them that the train is there, but there is no circuitry in the field protecting and assuring that).

The harder part is, there is a switch ladder at the east end of the platform. Either one or more switches in that ladder would have to be powered, and control added to those in the CTC, or a different procedure would have to be followed to operate those switches. As it stands today, those switches sit outside the CTC zone - so they can be operated manually without contacting the RTC or doing paperwork. That's important so trains can tie up or leave the yard tracks at Georgetown with minimum fuss. One would have to move the eastward signal which is currently at the east end of the switch ladder to the platform, and possibly add at least one eastward signal further up the ladder.

And then, the signals on either side of the platform that control entry to the platform would have to be reprogrammed to grant more favourable indications which might be different under different situations..... and the signals beyond those would have to be reprogrammed as their "approach" indications give advance warning of those "home signal" signal indications at the ends of the platform. And all of that would have to be tested.

Is it doable? Certainly - with money. The thing is, until there is certainty about the end design for the yard and the new trackage towards Guelph, all that effort would be wasted once further modifications to the track and signal layout are made. I suspect that's the reason for the lack of action..... everyone knows there are more changes in the works, and money and effort spent now would be only a temporary fix and thus a poor investment.

- Paul

 

[christiesplits]

Has Metrolinx officially stopped staffing ticket booths? Is it entirely ticket/Presto machines now?

 

[Krypto98]

The Alstom worker I know says that there’s still a shortage of CSA’s, but he never mentioned a shortage of engineers.

An Alstom hogger I know has said they need more engineers as well otherwise with the current spareboard size they could have issues

 

[Willybru21]

Has Metrolinx officially stopped staffing ticket booths? Is it entirely ticket/Presto machines now?

Staff still sit in them from time to time but they will not sell tickets from the booth now, they assist people using PRESTO and the ticket machines if they need help.

 

[Bordercollie]

What would be needed is to signalize the section of track between the signal visible in the photo (which governs westward trains) and the signal on the eastside of the platform governing eastward movements out of the platform.

The simple part of that is just to make it possible for the CTC to detect an occupancy in that section. At the moment, trains fall off the CTC plant when they arrive at the platform. (The RTC currrently sees a "tag" on their console reminding them that the train is there, but there is no circuitry in the field protecting and assuring that).

The harder part is, there is a switch ladder at the east end of the platform. Either one or more switches in that ladder would have to be powered, and control added to those in the CTC, or a different procedure would have to be followed to operate those switches. As it stands today, those switches sit outside the CTC zone - so they can be operated manually without contacting the RTC or doing paperwork. That's important so trains can tie up or leave the yard tracks at Georgetown with minimum fuss. One would have to move the eastward signal which is currently at the east end of the switch ladder to the platform, and possibly add at least one eastward signal further up the ladder.

And then, the signals on either side of the platform that control entry to the platform would have to be reprogrammed to grant more favourable indications which might be different under different situations..... and the signals beyond those would have to be reprogrammed as their "approach" indications give advance warning of those "home signal" signal indications at the ends of the platform. And all of that would have to be tested.

Is it doable? Certainly - with money. The thing is, until there is certainty about the end design for the yard and the new trackage towards Guelph, all that effort would be wasted once further modifications to the track and signal layout are made. I suspect that's the reason for the lack of action..... everyone knows there are more changes in the works, and money and effort spent now would be only a temporary fix and thus a poor investment.

- Paul

It's likely that it would take another five years to come up with a way to resolve this choke point. If spending 100k now will quickly put more service on the line I think it's worth it.