[reaperexpress]

^Getting back on track to GO and bike couriers....

I don'tlook at door delivery as an element of social design. There is clearly a public demand for it, and I'm not in favour of a government that would outlaw it. (I am however very much in favour of a government that imposes strict rules to ensure people earn a living wage for whatever their job is)

The better question is who should pay for it.

I'm baffled at the economics and carbon implications of the courier economy....I regularly order obscure items on Amazon....eg a $6 cable adapter....... track it online as it travels all the way from China, and then have it brought to my door by a delivery truck.... But....The old method would be for me to drive out to an obscure computer parts store in the 905 and hunt through their badly-organized shelves..... the part would likely still have come from China and cost $6, but my expenditure of gas and road capacity might have been greater, and using an online catalog is a lot faster and more reliable than that personal effort. So there is certainly value added, and possibly better carbon efficiency and economic value in terms of inventory control, etc. in the door delivery economy.

Food delivery is just one niche in that market driven system, and I am actually happier getting my food from a bicycle courier than someone in a loud, clapped out car that is racing aggressively all over my neighbourhood delivering pizza. (And I'm happier seeing my suburban neighbourhood evolve to something denser with local commercial space closer to every doorstep, so that we have bike couriers who don't have to make a 3km trip to deliver my food).

In my perfect theoretical world, the cost of that delivery would be bundled into the price charged and passed to the consumer. That includes the cost of the road that the Fedex van is using, and the cost of whatever GO capacity is necessary to accommodate bike couriers. And the customer can decide if the price is acceptable, relative to their other options. And demand would follow accordingly.

But in the real world.....pricing and users charges don't flow that precisely. So I would say, as a matter of policy and managing public infrastructure, GO simply can't afford to haul that many bicycles on a train of fixed capacity and growing demand.... and should require the bike couriers to figure out some other option. Without it becoming a matter of social policy.

- Paul

I think this is a good summary of the issues. The question is indeed whether the government should be heavily subsidizing the specific business model of bringing bikes back and forth to downtown every day, by charging people with bikes on trains (who take up twice as much space) the same as people without bikes. The problem with this model is that it's an incredibly inefficient use of public funds. If it continues scaling up, we could be doubling the required size of our trains for a given amount of ticket revenue.

If we charged (for example) $2 to bring a bike on a train, the consequence would not necessarily be that couriers need to pay an extra $4/day that they work downtown, it would in many cases be that they find a more cost-effective way of getting downtown, such as by storing their e-bike downtown at Union and using a cheap bike to get from their home to their local GO station.

 

[Undead]

No, that's not the alternative.

When discussing Uber Eats/Door Dash and the like, the alternative is doing away with them entirely, and actually making people get off their butt and go sit in a restaurant like a social human being instead of sitting on the couch, in front of the TV eating food out of a takeaway container.

Failing that, maybe people could try learning how to cook. LOL

***

To be clear, I'm not opposed to all food delivery, and by all means, where we have food delivery, if it can be by bike, great!

But I think restaurant and grocery delivery has become far too ubiquitous; the social consequence from it being under-priced, due to paying extremely poorly; and of people being less social and more lazy is not healthy nor desirable.

Make food delivery services pay their full and fair share of taxes, including payroll taxes like EI/CPP; and have them pay a guaranteed minimum wage, which is also a living wage; and I think the service's scale would collapse by 75% under its own weight, when every delivery costs an extra $10 vs today.

Laudable but out of scope for GO. But I appreciate your big picture thinking.

 

[Richard White]

Can we get a puking reaction emoji for the forum?!!?!?!

 

[Admiral Beez]

The alternative is the couriers drive.

The alternative is what I do. Walk to the restaurant and bring it home. Or, I go to the grocery store and make my own meals. I have never once used a food delivery app, mostly because I’m frugal and I hate to pay fees.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Doubtless true in small towns and such; but as someone who lives in a very middleclass, pretty safe area, I can tell you the neighbourhood social media groups are alive, almost daily with porch piracy complaints and camera feeds.

In my neighbourhood, Cabbagetown porch piracy is rampant. The FB groups are full of videos of junkies and vagrants stealing parcels.

 

[Undead]

The alternative is what I do. Walk to the restaurant and bring it home. Or, I go to the grocery store and make my own meals. I have never once used a food delivery app, mostly because I’m frugal and I hate to pay fees.

Rarely viable in the suburbs.

I almost never order food delivery either.

Do we know if the couriers are mostly traveling during peak or off peak? If off peak, we can probably be more lenient with imposing fees/restrictions for bringing bikes on trains.

For me, the bigger context is encouraging: that there is budding demand for combined cycling and transit trip patterns. Isn't this what we're trying to encourage?

Yes, the details matter and we must optimize them. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[nfitz]

In my neighbourhood, Cabbagetown porch piracy is rampant. The FB groups are full of videos of junkies and vagrants stealing parcels.

Here in the Beaches too - and yet it's never happened to me. (what has happened many times is Amazon and particularly Purolator delivering to the wrong address).

It's like all the fuss about Toronto no longer being safe, with so many murders - when reality is the murder rate is on track to be the lowest in years. Old people shouting at clouds.

 

[Undead]

It's like all the fuss about Toronto no longer being safe, with so many murders - when reality is the murder rate is on track to be the lowest in years. Old people shouting at clouds.

There's crime other than murders. Car jackings are up significantly.

 

[nfitz]

There's crime other than murders. Car jackings are up significantly.

It's up from Covid, certainly. It would be interesting to see data from last decade. And how much of it is just wanting to steal the car, rather than something else.

But that's not what I see people complaining about.

 

[Undead]

It's up from Covid, certainly. It would be interesting to see data from last decade. And how much of it is just wanting to steal the car, rather than something else.

But that's not what I see people complaining about.

Not just since covid.

Organized crime groups target debtors to participate in car theft, police say

Investigators’ description of the scheme comes in the wake of a major police crackdown in Windsor, Ont., where police recovered more than 130 stolen vehicles

www.theglobeandmail.com

"Between 2014 and 2021, the OPP says there was a 72 per cent increase in vehicle thefts across the province. In 2022, they saw another 14 per cent jump. And after just the first six months of this year, they were already closing in on last year’s total."

 

[Admiral Beez]

There's crime other than murders. Car jackings are up significantly.

Carjackings are rare. On average about a hundred a year out about two million vehicles in the GTA.

 

[Undead]

Murders are rare, perhaps a few dozen a year over 7.5 million people in the GTA.

We're talking about trends and relevant comparisons over time, not absolute numbers.

Anyway, we're wildly off topic.

 

[anb]

The bike problem continues at all time high for the Kitchener Line.

 

[nfitz]

Not just since covid.

Organized crime groups target debtors to participate in car theft, police say

Investigators’ description of the scheme comes in the wake of a major police crackdown in Windsor, Ont., where police recovered more than 130 stolen vehicles

www.theglobeandmail.com

"Between 2014 and 2021, the OPP says there was a 72 per cent increase in vehicle thefts across the province. In 2022, they saw another 14 per cent jump. And after just the first six months of this year, they were already closing in on last year’s total."

I don't see a mention of car jackings there - that seems to be about car theft - which isn't a violent crime.

The government could get car theft back down to traditional levels in 5 minutes with no cost, if they wanted to. The increase is primarily driven by the export of stolen high-end vehicles by sea in containers.

All the feds have to do is require a registry of car VINs being exported. And then if routine inspections EVER find a stolen car, then ban the shipping company from using Canadian ports.

But yes, we are off-topic.

 

[reaperexpress]

The bike problem continues at all time high for the Kitchener Line.

View attachment 501984

RIP anyone who was at Weston or Bloor trying to go anywhere other than the airport... Especially since the 22:34 is the last train of the day