[sebajun]

There are already 10 GO trains per weekday all the way to Kitchener, and the trains that don't make it all the way to Kitchener have connecting express buses to Kitchener from Bramalea via Hwy 407 and 401. There are already up to 3 buses per hour from Bramalea to Kitchener but since there's currently only 1 train per hour from Toronto to Bramalea outside of peak periods, all of those buses depart Bramalea at the same time. Once train service increases to 2 trains per hour to Bramalea, the connecting buses can be spread out to depart every 30 minutes to effectively double the frequency of service to Kitchener off-peak.

Yes, and construction is well underway. Additional context for you:

2019 Business case:

https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1663237677/Documents/Metrolinx/20191122_BoardMtg_Kitchener_IBC.pdf

2022 Announcement of construction start
https://www.metrolinx.com/en/discover/first-phase-of-work-to-expand-kitchener-go-line-service-begins

April 2024 construction update:


Here's my estimate of the status of the various double-track elements.
Base = hourly local service
Extra = one additional train per hour (GO express during peak periods, CN or VIA off-peak)

That's wonderful to hear that there are plans. I think the reason why many people choose not to use Go (including myself for a trip from Toronto to Kitchener) is the lack of flexibility. Prefer the European model, of basically being able to show up at a train station and buy a ticket and get anywhere you want without having to plan/schedule, and without significant wait times. I think we're getting there with this Go Expansion and am looking forward to it! I need to travel from Toronto to Kitchener twice a week, and the lack of flexibility makes it impossible to do, so I need to drive (which I would prefer not to).

 

[Garuda]

So it’s a cold rainy Saturday morning here in Guelph. I’ve just boarded the 33 bus to meet the train in Mount Pleasant. It’s busy, the bus is half full and it’s 8am. Weekend train service for the whole Kitchener Line is long overdue. Funny enough, lots of other riders are complaining about having to take a bus instead of catching the train at Guelph Central.

Instead of watching Saturday morning cartoons I woke up early to head to Toronto.

 

[crs1026]

Until the Acton and Guelph sidings are done, we won’t see much improvement. Hard to understand why these are progressing so slowly. I suspect the Brampton and Norval-Silver pieces will have to be finished first. CN is procuring design work on these, but no contract tendered for the actual construction. It will be a while yet, unfortunately.
I find that really frustratung.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

Until the Acton and Guelph sidings are done, we won’t see much improvement. Hard to understand why these are progressing so slowly. I suspect the Brampton and Norval-Silver pieces will have to be finished first. CN is procuring design work on these, but no contract tendered for the actual construction. It will be a while yet, unfortunately.
I find that really frustratung.

- Paul

Re tendering the contract

So when Metrolinx said in February via the Capital Projects Group Report that in "December, CN began the process of awarding a contract for the design of track and civil works on the Halton Subdivision that will enable more GOt raffic to travel over this CN-owned segment of the line"....I guess the challenge of know the status is that because CN is private they aren't going to do a Merx posting? I guess we don't really know from this what Metrolinx specifically means when they say "began the process of awarding the contact".

Or do you mean, tendering the contract for the actual construction rather than just the design?

 

[crs1026]

There’s no doubt, CN and not ML is procuring the design. I meant to say, I expect CN will also eventually put out a tender for construction. As you note, it will likely be done through CN’s normal procurement channels as opposed to ML’s. And project management will be done by CN.
CN may actually be more efficient at all that than ML…. But as noted, it may not be as transparent, and it will be done to CN’s schedule. This is tangential to CN’s core business and CN can’t really be faulted for a “when we can get to it” approach.
The point being, 2WAD was originally promised for 24-25 and now will arrive far later than that.

- Paul

PS - I wonder who will handle any consultations for the design through central Brampton. One would expect the design needs to be suitable and in harmony with plans to grow the Downtown. ML is bad enough about ramming designs through public input, I wonder how CN would handle that.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think the reason why many people choose not to use Go (including myself for a trip from Toronto to Kitchener) is the lack of flexibility. Prefer the European model, of basically being able to show up at a train station and buy a ticket and get anywhere you want without having to plan/schedule, and without significant wait times. I think we're getting there with this Go Expansion and am looking forward to it! I need to travel from Toronto to Kitchener twice a week, and the lack of flexibility makes it impossible to do, so I need to drive (which I would prefer not to).

But you can already show up at the station and take a train whenever. There's currently a train every hour or better, and in a couple weeks there will be a train every half hour. Whether the train makes it all the way to Kitchener or you need to transfer to route 30 at Bramalea makes no difference to the travel time. In fact if there's a Route 30A express connection the train+bus combo is actually slightly faster than the direct train.

It's not impossible to use GO transit to travel to Kitchener for business. I did so literally last week. That's when I filmed those videos.

 

[Northern Light]

But you can already show up at the station and take a train whenever. There's currently a train every hour or better, and in a couple weeks there will be a train every half hour.

* I know you're a very knowledgable fellow on this subject, to say the least, so bare with the reply below, it is not meant to be disrespectful in anyway, but it may express a degree of exasperation to your post which doesn't make sense to me.

****

To me, the first sentence is in contradiction to the second.

The accepted standard in public transit literature for not having to consult a schedule before going to a station or stop is generally every 15M or better frequency.

The suggestion that people can just show up and wait an up to an hour, and should be satisfied w/that doesn't really make sense to me. Who exactly has all this free time to waste up to an hour twice daily?

Also the poster is clearly stating they are from Kitchener which you clearly understand, but which it needs to be said lacks hourly service, and yes there's a bus, which most people view as inferior to rail, fairly or otherwise, but at minimum, that bus imposes a transfer and a second wait, this one for the train at Bramalea.

Choice riders want a certain degree of pleasantness and comfort along w/speed. That they can make a trip is better than not; but insufficient to lure most from a car.

 

[reaperexpress]

To me, the first sentence is in contradiction to the second.

The accepted standard in public transit literature for not having to consult a schedule before going to a station or stop is generally every 15M or better frequency.

The suggestion that people can just show up and wait an up to an hour, and should be satisfied w/that doesn't really make sense to me. Who exactly has all this free time to waste up to an hour twice daily?

The poster was talking about flexibility in the context of intercity rail, not local/rapid transit. Even in the Netherlands, most intercity services only run every 30 minutes off-peak, apart from a few core lines connecting major closely-spaced cities.

In the context intercity service, travelling with flexibility means that you can look up the schedule, find a train that goes to the city you want to go to at roughly the time you want to go, and just go to the station and get on that train. This is in contrast to riding Via Rail, where there's only one train per day, and even if there were a train every hour you wouldn't have flexibility to choose whichever train works best for you on the day since you need to book a specific seat a month in advance to get a reasonable ticket price.

The notion of 'wasting an hour' is really not how people operate for intercity journeys, given that the travel time is well over an hour anyway. For such long journeys, improving the travel time provides far more benefit to customers than improving the frequency beyond 1-2 trains per hour. Cutting 15 minutes off the travel time is equal to cutting the headway from 60 minutes to 30 for passengers who just show up at the station randomly - but since most passengers don't just show up at the station randomly the benefit is even more skewed in favour of improved speed rather than frequency. Furthermore, the perceived time-cost of waiting in a train station (climate controlled, with lots of shops, restaurants and other stuff to do in the area) is completely different than the perceived time-cost of waiting at a bus stop on the side of the road.

For local transit services, a minute spent waiting is commonly perceived as roughly 2x as onerous as a minute in a vehicle, but at major train stations the wait time may be less than 1x as onerous as in-vehicle time if you could set up a laptop and work more comfortably than you could on the train anyway.

Also the poster is clearly stating they are from Kitchener which you clearly understand, but which it needs to be said lacks hourly service, and yes there's a bus, which most people view as inferior to rail, fairly or otherwise, but at minimum, that bus imposes a transfer and a second wait, this one for the train at Bramalea.

Choice riders want a certain degree of pleasantness and comfort along w/speed. That they can make a trip is better than not; but insufficient to lure most from a car.

I'm well aware that a direct train has advantages over a train+bus combo, even if it's slower than the bus. I am not questioning that.

What I am questioning is that the poster's claim that it is "impossible" to travel for business from Toronto to Kitchener until we have regular all-day train service. That is objectively false, given that the direct train service won't be any more frequent or fast than the train+bus service we have today. It will just avoid the need to transfer in Bramalea.

 

[ShonTron]

Even by European standards, you’ll probably have a train every hour between Toronto and Kitchener. It would probably make fewer stops and be a shorter ride, but it’s not as if this is a local transit service.

 

[sebajun]

* I know you're a very knowledgable fellow on this subject, to say the least, so bare with the reply below, it is not meant to be disrespectful in anyway, but it may express a degree of exasperation to your post which doesn't make sense to me.

****

To me, the first sentence is in contradiction to the second.

The accepted standard in public transit literature for not having to consult a schedule before going to a station or stop is generally every 15M or better frequency.

The suggestion that people can just show up and wait an up to an hour, and should be satisfied w/that doesn't really make sense to me. Who exactly has all this free time to waste up to an hour twice daily?

Also the poster is clearly stating they are from Kitchener which you clearly understand, but which it needs to be said lacks hourly service, and yes there's a bus, which most people view as inferior to rail, fairly or otherwise, but at minimum, that bus imposes a transfer and a second wait, this one for the train at Bramalea.

Choice riders want a certain degree of pleasantness and comfort along w/speed. That they can make a trip is better than not; but insufficient to lure most from a car.

This is precisely the issue. I am never going to use a go train, that then requires me to transfer to a go bus (which may or may not be full) and whose schedule does not precisely line up with the go train, and which then needs to get on the highway, which may hit traffic. I would only ever use regional rail service and local transit (tram, subway or bus), and I am almost never likely to use a regional bus service. I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment. Rail is just fair superior (faster, no traffic, on time and predictable, etc.)

I am travelling from Toronto to Kitchener. Currently there is only one train that goes directly to Kitchener in the morning at 9:34, which has you arriving at 11:22 (1 hour, 50 minutes). The next direct train is at 12:34, which has you arriving at 2:22. The rest of the trips are once every hour (ridiculously low frequency) and they only go as far as Bramlea, at which point I need to transfer to a bus, with a 15-minute wait time for that bus. For reference, the 7:34 train gets you to Bramalea at 8:10, you then have to wait for the bus that departs at 8:23, which then gets you to Kitchener at 9:36. So, 2 hours 2 minutes, assuming no traffic (unlikely). Adding in the time it takes me to get to union (lets say 40 minutes) and then the time it takes me to get to work from Kitchener GO (lets say 15 minutes), that means (assuming I don't take the direct train, which wouldn't have me arrive by 9:00 anyways), it would take me approximately 3 hours to get to my work from Toronto using transit. This trip would also cost me $17.00.

My other option is to can also drive (which takes me 1:10 minutes door to door), approximately 2 hours faster, and costs me only like $8 in gas.

I wish we had high-frequency/high-speed rail, so that this trip could be cut down to ~1:00 or less, and 15-minute frequency. You would see massive uptick in usage, and it would connect all the regions so much more, making them highly desirable to live/work in.

 

[crs1026]

Also the poster is clearly stating they are from Kitchener which you clearly understand, but which it needs to be said lacks hourly service, and yes there's a bus, which most people view as inferior to rail, fairly or otherwise, but at minimum, that bus imposes a transfer and a second wait, this one for the train at Bramalea.

Choice riders want a certain degree of pleasantness and comfort along w/speed. That they can make a trip is better than not; but insufficient to lure most from a car.

The current express bus service to Kitchener and the universities with transfer at Bramalea is pretty convenient, actually, but not optimal. It's very dependent on traffic conditions and the buffer needed in the layover at Bramalea is a disincentive, as is the transfer. And it is not really that fast end to end.

I would argue that the test is how many people are not choosing to ride transit at all, and are driving instead. Seems to me the current service does disincent its use in a corridor that is choking on automobiles. So while the bus-train combo is not unpleasant, it's not good enough for what we need.

It's actually Guelph, not Kitchener, that is most shortchanged by the lack of 2WAD train service. Even with hourly bus to Mount Pleasant, that trip is far more of a milk run.

Hourly train service to Kitchener with faster service and fewer stops would be a significant improvement, and would carry far more people (the number riding the current train service is definitely impressive). The opportunity cost of not having that in place by today is egregious.

- Paul

 

[sebajun]

Even by European standards, you’ll probably have a train every hour between Toronto and Kitchener. It would probably make fewer stops and be a shorter ride, but it’s not as if this is a local transit service.

That is entirely incorrect. Just to make a comparison. Oxford University is located in Oxford, UK, which is a University town approximately 100km outside of London. Waterloo is 110 km outside of Toronto, so this is comparable, and it's also a university town. The population of Oxford UK is ~152,000, the population of the Waterloo region is ~600k. There are multiple train routes you can take from London to Oxford, just looking at next Monday, for example, there are trains that take between 50 minutes and 1 hour 30 minutes, and leave at 5:05, 5:23, 5:33, 5:53, 6:00, 6:09, 6:23, 6:30, 6:47, 6:50, 6:53, 7:11, 7:20, 7:28, 7:31, 7:39, etc. etc. There are more trains that leave before 7:00 am, than run in a full day from Toronto to Kitchener.

 

[reaperexpress]

This is precisely the issue. I am never going to use a go train, that then requires me to transfer to a go bus (which may or may not be full) and whose schedule does not precisely line up with the go train, and which then needs to get on the highway, which may hit traffic. I would only ever use regional rail service and local transit (tram, subway or bus), and I am almost never likely to use a regional bus service. I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment.

You are certainly not the only person with an irrational aversion to buses, but I think you are overestimating how many others have that same prejudice. For example, the bus+train combo is so popular that during busy periods GO needs to run three double-decker buses back-to-back just to handle the number of people who want to use it to get to Kitchener.

Most people do not completely discount certain modes of public transit, rather they make choices based on the performance of public transit (speed, frequency, reliability, comfort, etc), regardless of what mode is used to accomplish that.

Rail is just fair superior (faster, no traffic, on time and predictable, etc.)

Rail can be faster than buses, but that is not necessarily the case. Route 30A, which runs non-stop from Bramalea to Kitchener, is considerably faster than the train. For example, you can get off the Kitchener train at Bramalea at 10:09, wait five minutes for bus route 30A (which holds for the train connection), and get to Kitchener earlier than the train you were just on.

The key difference here is that all Kitchener Line trains make every single stop between Bramalea and Kitchener (even the express trains!) while the bus runs non-stop using a tollway to avoid congestion in the GTA.

I am travelling from Toronto to Kitchener. Currently there is only one train that goes directly to Kitchener in the morning at 9:34, which has you arriving at 11:22 (1 hour, 50 minutes). The next direct train is at 12:34, which has you arriving at 2:22. The rest of the trips are once every hour (ridiculously low frequency) and they only go as far as Bramlea, at which point I need to transfer to a bus, with a 15-minute wait time for that bus. For reference, the 7:34 train gets you to Bramalea at 8:10, you then have to wait for the bus that departs at 8:23, which then gets you to Kitchener at 9:36. So, 2 hours 2 minutes, assuming no traffic (unlikely). Adding in the time it takes me to get to union (lets say 40 minutes) and then the time it takes me to get to work from Kitchener GO (lets say 15 minutes), that means (assuming I don't take the direct train, which wouldn't have me arrive by 9:00 anyways), it would take me approximately 3 hours to get to my work from Toronto using transit. This trip would also cost me $17.00.

My other option is to can also drive (which takes me 1:10 minutes door to door), approximately 2 hours faster, and costs me only like $8 in gas.

The counter-peak situation is currently very bad indeed and needs to be improved. Due to the peak-period traffic congestion, that's one time of day when a direct train has a particularly large advantage over a bus.

As you've described here, the biggest issue is in fact not whether the service is operated by a bus or train, nor how frequent it is, but rather how long the travel time is. Even if we had a direct train every 15 minutes, it would still be very uncompetitive for your trip. If it takes 40 min for you to get to Union, 1h50 on the train and 15 min to get to work from Kitchener GO, then you're still looking at 2h45, which is double your quoted driving time, regardless of how frequent it is, and regardless of the fact that you don't need to take a bus.

This is my point. It is not enough to just ask for a frequent direct train service to Kitchener instead of the bus+train connection. We need to be pushing Metrolinx to operate a faster and more reliable direct train service, because the travel time on its own is already enough to dissuade many riders. That means ensuring that trains from Kitchener and Guelph make as few stops as possible, with separate local trains serving demand between Brampton and Toronto.

I wish we had high-frequency/high-speed rail, so that this trip could be cut down to ~1:00 or less, and 15-minute frequency. You would see massive uptick in usage, and it would connect all the regions so much more, making them highly desirable to live/work in.

A travel time of 1h or less would be an average speed of 100+ km/h, which is far outside of the territory of regional rail. Even the fastest regional trains in the world only average about 80 km/h. Above that is really the territory of intercity rail (stop spacing 25+ km). So Via Rail in our case. The downside of intercity rail is that it tends to be focused on much longer-distance trips (e.g. to London, Sarnia, Windsor) so they can get away with a lower degree of ticket flexibility.

See for example, the case of London UK to Oxford: although there are fast and frequent trains, they have variable ticket prices so if you just show up at the station you end up spending a fortune. Which severely undermines the flexibility of those services for regional travel.

 

[sebajun]

You are certainly not the only person with an irrational aversion to buses, but I think you are overestimating how many others have that same prejudice. For example, the bus+train combo is so popular that during busy periods GO needs to run three double-decker buses back-to-back just to handle the number of people who want to use it to get to Kitchener.

Most people do not completely discount certain modes of public transit, rather they make choices based on the performance of public transit (speed, frequency, reliability, comfort, etc), regardless of what mode is used to accomplish that.


Rail can be faster than buses, but that is not necessarily the case. Route 30A, which runs non-stop from Bramalea to Kitchener, is considerably faster than the train. For example, you can get off the Kitchener train at Bramalea at 10:09, wait five minutes for bus route 30A (which holds for the train connection), and get to Kitchener earlier than the train you were just on.

View attachment 555994
The key difference here is that all Kitchener Line trains make every single stop between Bramalea and Kitchener (even the express trains!) while the bus runs non-stop using a tollway to avoid congestion in the GTA.


The counter-peak situation is currently very bad indeed and needs to be improved. Due to the peak-period traffic congestion, that's one time of day when a direct train has a particularly large advantage over a bus.

As you've described here, the biggest issue is in fact not whether the service is operated by a bus or train, nor how frequent it is, but rather how long the travel time is. Even if we had a direct train every 15 minutes, it would still be very uncompetitive for your trip. If it takes 40 min for you to get to Union, 1h50 on the train and 15 min to get to work from Kitchener GO, then you're still looking at 2h45, which is double your quoted driving time, regardless of how frequent it is, and regardless of the fact that you don't need to take a bus.

This is my point. It is not enough to just ask for a frequent direct train service to Kitchener instead of the bus+train connection. We need to be pushing Metrolinx to operate a faster and more reliable direct train service, because the travel time on its own is already enough to dissuade many riders. That means ensuring that trains from Kitchener and Guelph make as few stops as possible, with separate local trains serving demand between Brampton and Toronto.


A travel time of 1h or less would be an average speed of 100+ km/h, which is far outside of the territory of regional rail. Even the fastest regional trains in the world only average about 80 km/h. Above that is really the territory of intercity rail (stop spacing 25+ km). So Via Rail in our case. The downside of intercity rail is that it tends to be focused on much longer-distance trips (e.g. to London, Sarnia, Windsor) so they can get away with a lower degree of ticket flexibility.

See for example, the case of London UK to Oxford: although there are fast and frequent trains, they have variable ticket prices so if you just show up at the station you end up spending a fortune. Which severely undermines the flexibility of those services for regional travel.
View attachment 555996
View attachment 555998

All great points! I would be the first to admit that my aversion to regional bus service is somewhat irrational. I think I generally find buses more uncomfortable, tend to get motion sickness, and they are at the whim of traffic (which is what I dislike about driving). I take the bus frequently in Toronto, and don’t mind it as much as regional bus services.

I have no doubt that the bus is currently popular. I suspect a direct train would be even more popular!

I think part of this could be solved by having express trains at peak as well.

All of this to say, I appreciate your nuanced view of this, and I think the improvements are good, but wish for even better at some point in the future. Maybe it’s a pipe dream, but having regional transit that is as flexible as local transit would make me ditch my car completely. I absolutely hate driving l, but do it out of necessity.

 

[reaperexpress]

Until the Acton and Guelph sidings are done, we won’t see much improvement. Hard to understand why these are progressing so slowly. I suspect the Brampton and Norval-Silver pieces will have to be finished first. CN is procuring design work on these, but no contract tendered for the actual construction. It will be a while yet, unfortunately.
I find that really frustratung.

- Paul

The Acton and Guelph sidings are currently under construction, but the CN segment is not. It is therefore safe to assume that the Breslau, Guelph and Acton sidings will be activated long before CN expands the trackage east of Georgetown.

So I think that as soon as Metrolinx's sidings are active, they should introduce hourly service between Kitchener and Guelph, even if CN doesn't allow them to run it all the way to Toronto yet. Given the travel time is 17 minutes each way, it only takes a single trainset to run the off-peak service. The capacity of the Kitchener yards is already fully occupied by the peak-period trains to Toronto, so a train would need to be sent to Kitchener from Toronto to run the midday service, arriving in Guelph by 09:00. Once the Breslau, Guelph and Acton sidings are active this would be possible as long as CN grants a slot for it through their segment. Given that it's only one additional round trip per day on CN's line, it shouldn't need to wait until CN's construction is done.

The counter-peak trips to Kitchener from Guelph in the morning could be provided using the existing trainsets that overnight in Kitchener. Some trains would depart Shirley Yard in Kitchener (between Kitchener and Guelph) eastbound towards Guelph shortly ahead of an eastbound train from Kitchener, and sit in the second platform in Guelph until that train leaves. Then it would head westbound, meeting the following eastbound train in Breslau, before arriving in Kitchener and starting an existing eastbound service.