[Platform 27]

GO's ability to significantly expand service during rush hour is limited without either getting an exemption from federal railroad regulation for Europe/Asia-style rolling stock.

There are a lot of reasons that it would be nice to get GO running lightweight European/Asian style MUs, but adding raw rush hour people-moving capacity isn't one of them. It's FRA signalling regulations about train spacing and block signalling rather than the rolling stock itself that really puts a cap on train frequency.

 

[canarob]

GO's ability to significantly expand service during rush hour is limited without either getting an exemption from federal railroad regulation for Europe/Asia-style rolling stock, or perhaps demolishing three tracks worth of space through the Metro Toronto Convention Centre/Hotel Intercontinental and running trains through that space. There's currently a bottleneck between the Skydome and the convention centre that limits track expansion.

Union Station Railway Corridor Track Study: http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5797

Outside of rush hour, GO could run a lot more service.

It was more the off-peak trains I was talking about, but surely we could also get 20-25 minute frequencies during rush hour on lines other than Lakeshore? Even making a few of the runs express would make a world of difference.

 

[reaperexpress]

GO's ability to significantly expand service during rush hour is limited without either getting an exemption from federal railroad regulation for Europe/Asia-style rolling stock (...)

I've always found it odd that this is the case. We are allowed to run 12 car bilevel trains at 150km/h headed by a cab car, so why can't we run the same thing, but without the loco at the back?
I thought the objection to mu's was the small crumple zone. The loco won't crumple much if it's at the back of the train during a collision.

 

[Platform 27]

It was more the off-peak trains I was talking about, but surely we could also get 20-25 minute frequencies during rush hour on lines other than Lakeshore? Even making a few of the runs express would make a world of difference.

Best as I can recall from reading here and there, here's the state of play. Our friendly resident train locomotor might be able to correct me on some of the below:

Milton line is at a hard rush hour train movement ceiling based on tracks and CP.

Kitchener line is likely pretty close to rush hour train movement ceiling, especially for the next four years while heavy construction is occurring along the line. There should be more capacity post-2015.

Barrie line is at a hard rush hour train movement ceiling as most of the line is not signalized and so the minimum headway is 30 minutes. It's been at that since the fifth train was added a few months ago. New signals are coming, which will allow more rush hour train movements.

Richmond Hill line is at or near a rush hour train movement ceiling because there's no end of line storage and the empty trains have to squeeze down the tracks relatively promptly before and after their scheduled runs. New end of line yard is opening in a year or two which should give them some wiggle room there.

Stouffville line is at a hard rush hour train movement ceiling as, like Barrie, most of the line is not signalized and so the minimum headway is 30 minutes. New signals are coming, which will allow more rush hour train movements.

Express trains aren't gonna happen in the near term on most of the lines because the passing tracks physically aren't there.

All of the above except Milton are running 10-car trains, which will be phased over to the 12-car trains starting relatively soon, I think. That will buy a bit more passenger capacity, but no better train frequency.

Every time you add a rush hour train trip, chances are you're not just reusing a trainset that's lying around, so there's the cost of a locomotive and coaches to factor in as well as the lag in speed for GO to order them and them to get here. Off-peak trains at least can potentially tap into spare equipment.

 

[Dandy Horse]

Am i correct in thinking trains will now be stopping at Barrie waterfront as of tomorrow?

 

[RedRocket191]

Am i correct in thinking trains will now be stopping at Barrie waterfront as of tomorrow?

No evidence to suggest you are. Sorry.

 

[Platform 27]

I've always found it odd that this is the case. We are allowed to run 12 car bilevel trains at 150km/h headed by a cab car, so why can't we run the same thing, but without the loco at the back?
I thought the objection to mu's was the small crumple zone. The loco won't crumple much if it's at the back of the train during a collision.

MUs are quite permissable on plain-vanilla North American track---so long as they're the right kind of MUs, namely ones that are built a bit more ruggedly than the international average. In part because they're a bit heavier-duty materialswise, but mostly because the market for North American-mixed-traffic-spec MUs is niche and uncompetitive, they're pricier on a per-unit basis than the thousands of lighter MU cars that are sold every year for use in Europe and Asia.

The ARL will be running MUs that are fully good to go on all tracks sans waiver. Via's Budd cars have likewise always been able to run on freight tracks.

 

[RedRocket191]

We often think that MUs are rare in North America, but the Long Island Railroad alone has over a thousand EMU cars in service today.

 

[canarob]

Best as I can recall from reading here and there, here's the state of play. Our friendly resident train locomotor might be able to correct me on some of the below:

Milton line is at a hard rush hour train movement ceiling based on tracks and CP.

Kitchener line is likely pretty close to rush hour train movement ceiling, especially for the next four years while heavy construction is occurring along the line. There should be more capacity post-2015.

Barrie line is at a hard rush hour train movement ceiling as most of the line is not signalized and so the minimum headway is 30 minutes. It's been at that since the fifth train was added a few months ago. New signals are coming, which will allow more rush hour train movements.

Richmond Hill line is at or near a rush hour train movement ceiling because there's no end of line storage and the empty trains have to squeeze down the tracks relatively promptly before and after their scheduled runs. New end of line yard is opening in a year or two which should give them some wiggle room there.

Stouffville line is at a hard rush hour train movement ceiling as, like Barrie, most of the line is not signalized and so the minimum headway is 30 minutes. New signals are coming, which will allow more rush hour train movements.

Express trains aren't gonna happen in the near term on most of the lines because the passing tracks physically aren't there.

All of the above except Milton are running 10-car trains, which will be phased over to the 12-car trains starting relatively soon, I think. That will buy a bit more passenger capacity, but no better train frequency.

Every time you add a rush hour train trip, chances are you're not just reusing a trainset that's lying around, so there's the cost of a locomotive and coaches to factor in as well as the lag in speed for GO to order them and them to get here. Off-peak trains at least can potentially tap into spare equipment.

Thanks for that - very informative.

 

[Dan416]

I always feel like the Milton line gets no love. Sure we get 12-car trains, but we only have 7 trains in and 7 out. Sure we get 30 minute bus service to most stations most of the day, but there's virtually no improvement to the rail service on the horizon. Oh sure there's that EA, but I don't see how much good that'll do until they figure out how to deal with CP.

 

[nfitz]

... but there's virtually no improvement to the rail service on the horizon.

And yet Metrolinx discussed adding an 8th train in the next year at their meeting today.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Best as I can recall from reading here and there, here's the state of play. Our friendly resident train locomotor might be able to correct me on some of the below:

No major correcting needed, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Your well-versed on all counts;

Milton - CP issues, rectified - unknown
Kitchener - ARL construction, rectified - 2015
Richmond Hill - equipment train deadheading from Willowbrook + need for service increases isn't nearly as high as the other lines. We should see 6 morning/afternoon trains once the outpost yard on Bethesda Road is completed.

Of all the branch lines, Stouffville will likely be the first to see increased frequency since the line is suppose to be signalized by spring. Barrie will be next, although there will be a lag because they won't start working on signalizing that line until they're finished such work on the Stouffville line. They probably chose to do the Stouffville line first simply because its much shorter than the Barrie and therefore improvements in service can be put into effect earlier. Like you noted, currently high speed passenger trains on OCS (non-signaled) mainline tracks are limited to 30 minute frequencies.
Although there is one run which is only 25 minutes after the previous one in the afternoon. I don't have confirmation on exactly why this is allowed but I'd imagine it has something to do with the fact that this one train operates on a different type of clearance(a work authority rather than proceed). Its far too technical to explain but basically you wouldn't be able to run all the trains with this without making everything overly complicated, so its a non-starter. Improvements in frequency will have to wait until the line is signalized.

Interestingly enough, its been suggested that Barrie will be the first to see all day service outside of the Lakeshore's in the form of a weekend service or so I've heard.

The ARL will be running MUs that are fully good to go on all tracks sans waiver.

I'm not so sure about this. From what I've been told, the plan is to have 2 tracks of used exclusively for the ARL service and the other 2 tracks for Kitchener GO service.

However, to start the service I've been told that only 3 tracks will be ready. So while 1 track will be for exclusive use of the ARL and another to be used exclusively by regular GO trains, the middle track will obviously have to service both types to accommodate passing. Perhaps this arrangement will only be allowed with speed restrictions and/or certain safety systems in place. Which is also why there wouldn't be any issues in the Union Station Rail Corridor.
For example, trains on non-signaled mainline tracks are limited to a maximum of 50mph from a 1/4 mile when approaching any switch until it is determined that the switch is lined properly. This is in case someone accidentally left the switch 'open' the train could stop before entering the other track/spur/siding/industrial lead, or enter into it at a slow speed and hopefully stop shortly thereafter before colliding into anything or running out of track. (A 10 coach Go train can make a complete stop from 50mph in about 1 train length i.e 920ft/0.17 miles using full or emergency brakes in most conditions).

 

[Dandy Horse]

can anyone tell me when trains will be running into barrie waterfront station? i cant find it on their website, but the town website said that construction was done on Dec. 31.

 

[canarob]

No major correcting needed, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Your well-versed on all counts;

Milton - CP issues, rectified - unknown
Kitchener - ARL construction, rectified - 2015
Richmond Hill - equipment train deadheading from Willowbrook + need for service increases isn't nearly as high as the other lines. We should see 6 morning/afternoon trains once the outpost yard on Bethesda Road is completed.

Of all the branch lines, Stouffville will likely be the first to see increased frequency since the line is suppose to be signalized by spring. Barrie will be next, although there will be a lag because they won't start working on signalizing that line until they're finished such work on the Stouffville line. They probably chose to do the Stouffville line first simply because its much shorter than the Barrie and therefore improvements in service can be put into effect earlier. Like you noted, currently high speed passenger trains on OCS (non-signaled) mainline tracks are limited to 30 minute frequencies.
Although there is one run which is only 25 minutes after the previous one in the afternoon. I don't have confirmation on exactly why this is allowed but I'd imagine it has something to do with the fact that this one train operates on a different type of clearance(a work authority rather than proceed). Its far too technical to explain but basically you wouldn't be able to run all the trains with this without making everything overly complicated, so its a non-starter. Improvements in frequency will have to wait until the line is signalized.

Interestingly enough, its been suggested that Barrie will be the first to see all day service outside of the Lakeshore's in the form of a weekend service or so I've heard.




I'm not so sure about this. From what I've been told, the plan is to have 2 tracks of used exclusively for the ARL service and the other 2 tracks for Kitchener GO service.

However, to start the service I've been told that only 3 tracks will be ready. So while 1 track will be for exclusive use of the ARL and another to be used exclusively by regular GO trains, the middle track will obviously have to service both types to accommodate passing. Perhaps this arrangement will only be allowed with speed restrictions and/or certain safety systems in place. Which is also why there wouldn't be any issues in the Union Station Rail Corridor.
For example, trains on non-signaled mainline tracks are limited to a maximum of 50mph from a 1/4 mile when approaching any switch until it is determined that the switch is lined properly. This is in case someone accidentally left the switch 'open' the train could stop before entering the other track/spur/siding/industrial lead, or enter into it at a slow speed and hopefully stop shortly thereafter before colliding into anything or running out of track. (A 10 coach Go train can make a complete stop from 50mph in about 1 train length i.e 920ft/0.17 miles using full or emergency brakes in most conditions).

Thanks for the update, Vegeta. Glad to hear Stouffville is still first in line for more service. I keep hearing about a new afternoon train in the spring, which would be a godsend (the gap between the 17:20 and 18:00 trains is brutal).

In terms of Barrie getting weekend service first, maybe this is due to the 400 having brutal traffic all summer, so GO thinks there might be more of a market for this? The 404 is bad as well of course, but at least people along the Stouffville and Richmond Hill lines are closer to the TTC, etc., and have other options.

 

[smallspy]

I'm not so sure about this. From what I've been told, the plan is to have 2 tracks of used exclusively for the ARL service and the other 2 tracks for Kitchener GO service.

However, to start the service I've been told that only 3 tracks will be ready. So while 1 track will be for exclusive use of the ARL and another to be used exclusively by regular GO trains, the middle track will obviously have to service both types to accommodate passing. Perhaps this arrangement will only be allowed with speed restrictions and/or certain safety systems in place. Which is also why there wouldn't be any issues in the Union Station Rail Corridor.
For example, trains on non-signaled mainline tracks are limited to a maximum of 50mph from a 1/4 mile when approaching any switch until it is determined that the switch is lined properly. This is in case someone accidentally left the switch 'open' the train could stop before entering the other track/spur/siding/industrial lead, or enter into it at a slow speed and hopefully stop shortly thereafter before colliding into anything or running out of track. (A 10 coach Go train can make a complete stop from 50mph in about 1 train length i.e 920ft/0.17 miles using full or emergency brakes in most conditions).

The ARL equipment being built by Kinki-Sharyo/Sumitomo is completely FRA- and EPA-compliant, and can run on any railway in the US or Canada. All 3 tracks will be signalized with CTC and will have #20 crossovers every couple of miles, just like on the Oakville and Kingston Subs (although it's not clear yet whether CN will be controlling it or whether it will be GO themselves).

Going back to Milton/CP, the issue with them is simply money - they are demanding more than Metrolinx thinks is fair to pay for the track time. The 8th wayside box is in place and active at Milton Yard.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.