[k10ery]

The shame about the GO service to Kitchener is that it really doesn't serve the biggest demand patterns. GO is committed to the weekday commuter to Toronto market to the exclusion of all else. A sunday evening train from Toronto to Kitchener would be packed with students. That's when the buses see the most serious crowding. A reasonable schedule for commuters between KW and Guelph would also be well-used.

Looking ahead to the future, I think that Toronto should adopt roughly the German model of regional rail service. That would involve two levels of service: they call them S-Bahn and RegioBahn, let's call them regional rail and regional express, though they definitely need snappier names. The regional rail services would operate with rapid-transit style vehicles and service with all-day, every day headways of 10 or 15 minutes. They would run out as far as the inner 905 suburbs. That's probably all you would see on Richmond Hill, Stouffville, and possibly Milton. The Barrie, Kitchener and Lakeshore lines would need a second level of service with amenities for longer trips -- something like the current GO trains -- and stops only at major stations. Their frequency would be somewhat lower -- say, every hour or half hour depending on the line and time of day. The distances in the GTA are just too great for frequent stop regional rail service out to the fringes. The outer edges of the Munich S-Bahn network are about 45 kilometres from the city centre -- less than half the distance from Toronto to Kitchener.

Agreed. It would also be nice to put the Kitchener extension investment to work by running S-Bahn service between Kitchener and Guelph. But it seems the demand is not there for it for now.

 

[gweed123]

Looking ahead to the future, I think that Toronto should adopt roughly the German model of regional rail service. That would involve two levels of service: they call them S-Bahn and RegioBahn, let's call them regional rail and regional express, though they definitely need snappier names. The regional rail services would operate with rapid-transit style vehicles and service with all-day, every day headways of 10 or 15 minutes. They would run out as far as the inner 905 suburbs. That's probably all you would see on Richmond Hill, Stouffville, and possibly Milton. The Barrie, Kitchener and Lakeshore lines would need a second level of service with amenities for longer trips -- something like the current GO trains -- and stops only at major stations. Their frequency would be somewhat lower -- say, every hour or half hour depending on the line and time of day. The distances in the GTA are just too great for frequent stop regional rail service out to the fringes. The outer edges of the Munich S-Bahn network are about 45 kilometres from the city centre -- less than half the distance from Toronto to Kitchener.

I've been thinking about this too. How I envision it is having electrified express rail out to the following places: Hamilton, Milton, Georgetown, Newmarket, Stouffville, Bowmanville.

Beyond these locations, DMUs (like Ottawa's O-Train) would run between these locations and: Niagara Falls, Cambridge, Kitchener, Barrie, Peterborough, and Cobourg.

How I envision the DMU system working is each line would be equipped with 3 of them in service. The morning would see 3 trains going in, and then during the midday 1 of them would just shuttle back and forth. In the PM rush hour, the 2 trains that came in in the morning would go back out. Add an extra full trip for one of those trains if extra capacity is needed. It would be cheap, and it would probably offer all the capacity that would be needed.

 

[unimaginative2]

I've been thinking about this too. How I envision it is having electrified express rail out to the following places: Hamilton, Milton, Georgetown, Newmarket, Stouffville, Bowmanville.

Beyond these locations, DMUs (like Ottawa's O-Train) would run between these locations and: Niagara Falls, Cambridge, Kitchener, Barrie, Peterborough, and Cobourg.

How I envision the DMU system working is each line would be equipped with 3 of them in service. The morning would see 3 trains going in, and then during the midday 1 of them would just shuttle back and forth. In the PM rush hour, the 2 trains that came in in the morning would go back out. Add an extra full trip for one of those trains if extra capacity is needed. It would be cheap, and it would probably offer all the capacity that would be needed.

Very interesting ideas. Yeah, I pretty much agree with that as a good start. I'm not so sure it's good to force people to transfer, though. The benefit of the higher level regional trains (vs S-Bahn/RER-style trains) is both service to outlying areas and faster service with less-frequent stops within the core urban area. I think it would be better, at least in the longer term, to overlay the regional express on top of the regional rail because the whole problem of service to those outlying areas is that it's really slow. Electrified regional rail would have even-more-frequent stops than the existing GO trains. Combined with the transfers, we'd be talking about a very long trip into the city.

 

[k10ery]

I've been thinking about this too. How I envision it is having electrified express rail out to the following places: Hamilton, Milton, Georgetown, Newmarket, Stouffville, Bowmanville.

Beyond these locations, DMUs (like Ottawa's O-Train) would run between these locations and: Niagara Falls, Cambridge, Kitchener, Barrie, Peterborough, and Cobourg.

How I envision the DMU system working is each line would be equipped with 3 of them in service. The morning would see 3 trains going in, and then during the midday 1 of them would just shuttle back and forth. In the PM rush hour, the 2 trains that came in in the morning would go back out. Add an extra full trip for one of those trains if extra capacity is needed. It would be cheap, and it would probably offer all the capacity that would be needed.

O-Train carries 15,000 people per day. How many of your DMU routes would be around that level?

 

[Dandy Horse]

has anyone taken the GO train into allandale station? i havn't made it yet, and would really like a descriptive explanation of how the trip is north of barrie south!

 

[gweed123]

O-Train carries 15,000 people per day. How many of your DMU routes would be around that level?

They have 2 that go back and forth, and cross midway. The only section where it's double tracked is at Carleton, which is the midpoint of the line.

 

[gweed123]

Very interesting ideas. Yeah, I pretty much agree with that as a good start. I'm not so sure it's good to force people to transfer, though. The benefit of the higher level regional trains (vs S-Bahn/RER-style trains) is both service to outlying areas and faster service with less-frequent stops within the core urban area. I think it would be better, at least in the longer term, to overlay the regional express on top of the regional rail because the whole problem of service to those outlying areas is that it's really slow. Electrified regional rail would have even-more-frequent stops than the existing GO trains. Combined with the transfers, we'd be talking about a very long trip into the city.

If you time the transfers correctly, I don't think they'd be a big deal. Also, if you're running trains at pretty high frequencies, having DMUs pulling into Union during rush hour would be a waste of track capacity, given the low ridership on those trains compared to electrified trains that would also be running.

In the AM rush hour the transfer wouldn't be an issue at all, because you would be going from a lower frequency route to a higher frequency route. In the PM rush hour, the departing trains can be scheduled around when the electrified trains arrive.

Running the DMUs into a regional terminal that isn't Union may be a good idea though (to Cooksville, Dundas West, or Kennedy for example).

 

[unimaginative2]

Yeah, the frequency is fine. The problem is the travel time. It will make it either impossible to add the stations necessary to make a proper urban regional rail service, or it will take an excessive amount of time to get to Union. The current GO service to Kitchener is already 2 hours, which is bad, but with more stops and a transfer, it'll be 2.5 hours or more. That's just not competitive. The point of the outer regional service isn't just to serve the ends of the line, though. It's to offer people at major stops like Brampton or Oakville and quicker ride into the city so that capacity can be freed up on the local S-Bahn/RER service for shorter trips.

 

[gweed123]

Yeah, the frequency is fine. The problem is the travel time. It will make it either impossible to add the stations necessary to make a proper urban regional rail service, or it will take an excessive amount of time to get to Union. The current GO service to Kitchener is already 2 hours, which is bad, but with more stops and a transfer, it'll be 2.5 hours or more. That's just not competitive. The point of the outer regional service isn't just to serve the ends of the line, though. It's to offer people at major stops like Brampton or Oakville and quicker ride into the city so that capacity can be freed up on the local S-Bahn/RER service for shorter trips.

To be fair, if you want a fast ride to downtown Toronto, don't live in Kitchener!

I do see your point though, I just don't think that providing a service that that's long of a trip to so few people is worth it. Realistically speaking, no one will be boarding those DMUs when it starts overlapping with the electrified service, meaning that 4/5ths of the travel distance of each one of those trips won't be generating any revenue at all. Not to mention the amount of time spent dead heading would be ridiculous. At least if the service is turned back at the beginning of the electrified section, the amount of time the train is in revenue service increases dramatically.

 

[dunkalunk]

When it comes to electrification, it is my opinion that the entire line should be electrified in order to maintain high capacity on the line that would otherwise be caused by a mix of vehicles.

In an case, there is enough travel demand between Kitchener, Guelph, and Cambridge (Galt) that a 2 car DMU service could be supported locally running between the 3 centres.

 

[TOareaFan]

In an case, there is enough travel demand between Kitchener, Guelph, and Cambridge (Galt) that a 2 car DMU service could be supported locally running between the 3 centres.

I hear this a lot and wonder what is so unique about these 3 centres that makes people such strong advocates for that sort of express local service? Could you not say the same about a lot of places? Is there more traffic between those three and, say, Brampton-Missisauga? Oshawa-Whitby-Ajax-Pickering? Oakville-Burlington-Mississauga?

It is exciting that there seems to be a strong transit interest/advocacy in Kitchener/Cambridge/Guelph but I am not aware of any compelling argument that would make introducing rapid inter-city transit for those places a priority over the slow, but steady, infrastructure improvements we have embarked on (if there are, share them).

 

[royalrivers]

Yeah, the frequency is fine. The problem is the travel time. It will make it either impossible to add the stations necessary to make a proper urban regional rail service, or it will take an excessive amount of time to get to Union. The current GO service to Kitchener is already 2 hours, which is bad, but with more stops and a transfer, it'll be 2.5 hours or more. That's just not competitive. The point of the outer regional service isn't just to serve the ends of the line, though. It's to offer people at major stops like Brampton or Oakville and quicker ride into the city so that capacity can be freed up on the local S-Bahn/RER service for shorter trips.

The main reason why it takes 2 hours now is because the tracks between Georgetown and Kitchener are in 'Dark Territory' and there is also other factors, such as 1 track isntead of double etc. VIA Rail has stated they will be making upgrades from GT to London/Sarnia this year and next. Please read about it on gokw.org

Once these upgrades are done, as well as the track work on georgetown south, the travel time will come down very quickly to about 1hr 30 -1hr 45 from Kitchener to Toronto....

 

[unimaginative2]

I do see your point though, I just don't think that providing a service that that's long of a trip to so few people is worth it. Realistically speaking, no one will be boarding those DMUs when it starts overlapping with the electrified service, meaning that 4/5ths of the travel distance of each one of those trips won't be generating any revenue at all. Not to mention the amount of time spent dead heading would be ridiculous. At least if the service is turned back at the beginning of the electrified section, the amount of time the train is in revenue service increases dramatically.

I don't think it's few people. Kitchener-Waterloo have going on 400,000 people. In Europe, a city of 400,000 that's 100km away from another major city would be connected by dozens of trains a day. Why would nobody board the DMUs once they overlapped with the electric service? The whole point is that they're express. If I were in Brampton and going to Union, I'd obviously board the DMU that would make one or two stops at most rather than the electric train that would make twenty or so. The point is to cut back the electric service to a reasonable distance so that you can increase the stop frequency and make it a genuine urban service. You then need a second level of service with less frequent stops to pick up the slack for longer trips.

Kitchener is 100km away--it isn't on the moon. It also has significant connections to Toronto, including a lot of students who come from Toronto and go to school in K-W. You can drive it in an hour for most of the day, two hours in rush hour. Nobody will take a train that takes more than two hours. It has to be at least reasonably competitive. A service that takes 2.5 hours+ is worse than what we have today.

As for local service in the inner 905, that's the whole point of the electrified regional rail. With trains running every 10-20 minutes (depending on the service standard), these routes would serve as local rapid transit lines within the 905 regions. I'd also favour putting regional rail on the Orangeville line at least as far as north Brampton since it would connect Brampton, the Meadowvale office park, and, ideally, Square One.

The lack of signalling and single track on the Guelph Sub don't help, but they have more of an impact on capacity than on speed. The big problem for travel time is the poor quality of the tracks and the many slow orders. Trains crawl through Guelph and again at the Grand River bridge. Fortunately, VIA seems to finally be planning to invest in improving the quality of the tracks. They should just buy them from GEXR and be done with it. The GO trains are even slower because they make a lot of stops. Real electrified regional rail would make even more stops.

 

[dunkalunk]

I hear this a lot and wonder what is so unique about these 3 centres that makes people such strong advocates for that sort of express local service? Could you not say the same about a lot of places? Is there more traffic between those three and, say, Brampton-Missisauga? Oshawa-Whitby-Ajax-Pickering? Oakville-Burlington-Mississauga?

It is exciting that there seems to be a strong transit interest/advocacy in Kitchener/Cambridge/Guelph but I am not aware of any compelling argument that would make introducing rapid inter-city transit for those places a priority over the slow, but steady, infrastructure improvements we have embarked on (if there are, share them).

I would need to get the data to give you actual numbers, but from what I can recall, Guelph, KW, and Cambridge's largest commutersheds are each-other as opposed to the GTA.

 

[TOareaFan]

I would need to get the data to give you actual numbers, but from what I can recall, Guelph, KW, and Cambridge's largest commutersheds are each-other as opposed to the GTA.

That would not surprise me but...it is largely irrelavent to my question. Even if Mississauga, as an example, has a higher percentage of its commutes to and from Toronto than those communities do...the size of Mississauga and Brampton (to continue the example) might mean that the absolute number of commuters between them still exceeds the number of commutes between Guelph-KW-Cambridge.....it would not surprise me if this is the case (and it would not surprise me, either, if the commutes from Oakville to Mississauga are also higher).