[TOareaFan]

Not perfectly, no, but it's the best I've seen when it comes to suburban GO stations (not counting urban 905 stations like Hamilton or Brampton). But they are adjacent and they share the same new roadway connecting Main and Thompson. There's also a set of lights between Loblaws and the station that make it easy to cross.

I think that is the best you can hope for (outside, as you mention, places like Brampton and Hamilton, where the LCBO, convenience stores, dry cleaners, etc already exist).

But those locations would be hint to folks as to why this integration is not front of mind of many retailers or retail developers. How many people really get off the train at Brampton and say, "I will just pop over there and get a bottle of vino for dinner before getting in my car (or on the Zum)." as opposed to "ready, set, go....race to get off train and into car and out of parking lot".

I am sure no one here has done the count but I bet it ain't many. So retailers thinking about locating within GO parking lots/structures (who would do those studies) would see a lot more negative in having the parking debacle that would accompany being integrated with a suburban GO (as opposed to being nearby) than the postive of having those few people who will stop and shop before they pop home.

 

[TOareaFan]

EDIT: For a sort of proof-of-concept, just look at all of the retailers in the Union GO Concourse. The LCBO at Union (before it was closed because of the renovations) was constantly pretty busy. Many of the patrons were people waiting for their train home from work, or those coming in on the train for a night out somewhere.

Obviously the scale is a little bit different at suburban GO stations, but the principle is still there.

The scale is not even in the same ballpark. Firstly, those going home commuters for the most part walk to Union and had to walk past/near the LCBO (even those arriving by subway eventually walked into the station)....so no dealing with the parking headache. Secondly, they couldn't go anywhere until their train left....so if they had a few minutes they popped in for a bottle. Thirdly, all commuters for all lines had to be in that building.

Take the LCBO out into the hinterlands.....now they are dealing with not only just the commuters from 1 line but those that specifically get off at that station....secondly, there is nothing "forcing" the commuter to linger and shop (quite the opposite...whatever is in the family plans for that night - soccer practice, dance lessons, whatever - give an incentive to get the heck outta the station as fast as possible....thirdly, any suburban location like that is going to be, at least, equally reliant on non-GO customers to make their business work..so how do you deal with that when the first/best couple of thousand parking spots are taken before you open and then the afternoon creates a traffic nightmare in your parking lot as those commuters dash off trains into cars to get away.....fourthly the scale of retail at Union itself (as the re-development happens) is going to cater to those folks "wanting to pick some booze (or whatever) up" that more easily accessible (and justifiable) retail at the Union end of those GO trips will canablize any sales retailers can expect at the suburban end.

There are things that GO can do with their land, but I don't think any large (or mid) scale retail use is going to fly.....I suspect they know that.

 

[Markster]

On the other hand, by placing something like a grocery store there, it will reduce the traffic jam after a train arrives. People getting off the train will know that if they spend 20 minutes doing some shopping, then the queue to get out will have dissipated.

 

[TOareaFan]

On the other hand, by placing something like a grocery store there, it will reduce the traffic jam after a train arrives. People getting off the train will know that if they spend 20 minutes doing some shopping, then the queue to get out will have dissipated and replaced with the next crowd on the next train.

Fixed your post a bit. But, again, a retailer like a grocery store needs to draw custom from far more than just the % of the people getting off those trains that will shop there. If the general community says "don't go there, you can't park near it and then there are all those commuters to deal with".....the benefit of gaining a few customers off a train will be more than offset by the "don't go there" sentiments of the rest of the community.

Shon Tron's example of Milton having retail near/adjacent with some co-ordination of traffic signals between the two, separate, parking lots is about all you can hope for from the retail community.

 

[Markster]

Your edit is an oversimplification.

The key is that it would smooth out the peaks and valleys of traffic.
If trains are every 30 minutes, and you take 30 minutes instead of 20 to do your shopping, then there's nothing that can help you. But there will be people who know they will be stuck in the thick of the jam who will delay their departure by a small amount of time, and will be productive doing so.

I agree that the questions of mid-day parking availability and perceived traffic nightmares are other problems. I could imagine that the store could not be conveniently placed next to the platform for the problem of the former. It would have to be at a distance where parking spots aren't universally filled, which absolutely reduces the convenience of the location.

 

[andrewpmk]

Your edit is an oversimplification.

The key is that it would smooth out the peaks and valleys of traffic.
If trains are every 30 minutes, and you take 30 minutes instead of 20 to do your shopping, then there's nothing that can help you. But there will be people who know they will be stuck in the thick of the jam who will delay their departure by a small amount of time, and will be productive doing so.

I agree that the questions of mid-day parking availability and perceived traffic nightmares are other problems. I could imagine that the store could not be conveniently placed next to the platform for the problem of the former. It would have to be at a distance where parking spots aren't universally filled, which absolutely reduces the convenience of the location.

There would have to be some number of parking spots that are reserved for store customers only and this would have to be strictly enforced. Any car found parking all day in the customer parking only area would have their car towed. Kind of like how Yorkdale/Fairview have a small TTC parking lot, while commuters are not supposed to use the mall parking lot.

 

[Markster]

And it all means added complexity, which partly explains why GO doesn't look into these kinds of co-locations.

 

[gweed123]

There would have to be some number of parking spots that are reserved for store customers only and this would have to be strictly enforced. Any car found parking all day in the customer parking only area would have their car towed. Kind of like how Yorkdale/Fairview have a small TTC parking lot, while commuters are not supposed to use the mall parking lot.

That's the kind of setup that I was thinking. There would be a dedicated parking section for the retail stores, which would be either closed off or monitored during the morning peak period, but open the rest of the day. 1hr parking strictly enforced.

In fact, I would imagine that during the snowy winter months these stores may actually be an advantage, because of the covered parking spots.

And as for the "they just want to get home" thing, consider this: How many people pick up something along the way home (something for dinner for example)? Quite a few. The convenience factor here is pretty huge.

And again, I don't think the "they haven't done it, therefore it isn't worth doing/doesn't work" really flies as a rationale. GO hasn't introduced 30 minute all-day service on all lines either. Does that mean it isn't worth doing?

 

[TOareaFan]

That's the kind of setup that I was thinking. There would be a dedicated parking section for the retail stores, which would be either closed off or monitored during the morning peak period, but open the rest of the day. 1hr parking strictly enforced.

Complexities like dividing parking lots, limited time parking, monitoring who parks where, etc etc are fine.....but in land rich suburbia they are complexities that the retailers (and, more relevantly, retail developers) do not have to deal with if they simply locate on existing availalbe land that may, actually, be near the GO station.

In fact, I would imagine that during the snowy winter months these stores may actually be an advantage, because of the covered parking spots.

These GO parking structures would not be the only covered parking in (m)any city's retail landscape. If covered parking was such an advantage, the trend away from malls to big box/value centres would not be as prevelant as it has been for the past, what, 20 years.

And as for the "they just want to get home" thing, consider this: How many people pick up something along the way home (something for dinner for example)? Quite a few. The convenience factor here is pretty huge.

Sure, sometimes people stop on their way home. Is it the majority...I doubt it. Is it a signifcant minority....I kinda doubt that too. The problem with anecdotal comments like that is that there are equally persuasive counter anecdotal comments. The Brampton GO station (as an example) has lots of convenient places (as easily walkable as a the far end of a large parking strucutre would be) to pick up a wide variety of foods to take home....or bottles of wine, etc. Yet I am sure if you sat there and counted how many people did that before getting in their cars the number would be a very (hard to measure) small percentage of the people getting off the trains.

And again, I don't think the "they haven't done it, therefore it isn't worth doing/doesn't work" really flies as a rationale. GO hasn't introduced 30 minute all-day service on all lines either. Does that mean it isn't worth doing?

I never said it was not worth doing....I am just simply trying to add a retailers persepctive on why it might not have happened. It would be a very bold move by GO to build a parking structure with ground floor retail at one of their stations. One that I might even encourage them to attempt...but I don't think it is retail build it and they will come.... I think the points I am raising are the same ones that any retail partner they approached would raise and as long as there is available retail lands nearby, the retail developer will (IMO) opt for those simpler solutions.

Again, the focus really should be on projects that are (per ShonTron's description) like Milton. Somehow co-ordinated with GO rather than on GO property. I will have to go have a look at that but that sounds like work was done more at the municipal level than by,either, GO or the retail developer. Sorta "we have two properties across from each other, one a train station and one a retail centre....how do we work the access/egress, roadway and traffic signals to best serve both and encourage (at least not discourage) cross-usage?"

 

[mpd618]

Relevant to the above discussion is this Request for Information from Metrolinx.

Metrolinx/GO Transit is considering the redevelopment of train stations across its network to maximize their revenue potential by capitalizing on existing passenger flows and, as identified in recent GO Transit surveys, their desire to see more retail and service opportunities at these facilities. A better integration of the stations with their adjacent communities by addressing some of their needs must also be considered, thereby attracting a new customer segment and maximizing the stations’ full revenue generating potential.

It's interesting and a good step, though the pure focus on everything as revenue generation is a rather narrow take.

 

[canarob]

I got this today:

Stouffville Line Passengers: In our Passenger Charter, one of our promises is to make your travel experience comfortable. In line with that promise, as ridership grows, this month the Lincolnville 07:07 - Union 08:21 and the Union 16:48 - Lincolnville 17:59 train trips now operate on 12 car trains, adding another 300 seats on each of these trips. With the addition of 12 car trains on these 2 trips, this now means 7 of the 11 daily trips on your line now operate on 12 car trains. As your comfort is important to us, we do hope that this additional seating capacity will be another step in making your GO Train ride a more comfortable experience.

 

[Disparishun]

In any case, I still feel that GO should be building their new parking structures with retail on the ground floor (Sobey's, LCBO, Future Shop, etc), with the parking stacked above it. Convenient for the passengers coming home from work, and that way GO at least gets some rent revenue from the space occupied by those parking structures.

How about cafés and gyms?

 

[gweed123]

How about cafés and gyms?

That would work well too.

 

[TOareaFan]

Ah......the value of signage! 5:43 p.m. a chap sticks his head into the overflowing cabin of a train leaving @ 5:45 and asks "does this go to Guelph? The well meaning young lady he directs the question @ glances at the map and says "no, it stops at Georgetown " (as the map indicates). Before those of us who knew better could speak up, he had scurried away as he only had 2 minutes to find his train!

Is it that hard to change the map in 2339? How many other maps remain unchanged?

 

[livinginAurora]

Express trains in Barrie Line?

Apologies in advance if this has been discussed before, I searched for over 2 hours and couldn't find any info in this thread or other threads.

Does anybody know if there are there any plans to add express trains to the Barrie line from Aurora or Newmarket to Union? I have read about the full day service extension but nothing mentioning the possibility of adding express trains in the future. The five rush hour trains are usually pretty packed with passengers standing most of the times, so it makes sense to me to add more frequent services during rush hour rather than providing extra trips during the down times.

The information on Metrolinx's Big Move is not very encouraging as the 15 year plan only show the existing Lakeshore express lines and the new Georgetown express line currently being built, and the 25 year plan shows new express services on the Milton and Richmond Hill lines.

http://www.metrolinx.com/thebigmove/en/interactive/schedule1.pdf
http://www.metrolinx.com/thebigmove/en/interactive/schedule2.pdf


I commute from Aurora to Union every day and I am seriously considering a move to Oakville to save 20 minutes each way. I really like living in Aurora but the +1 hour commute each way is taking a toll on me.