[rbt]

Perhaps we should be charitable and deduct the cost of the grade separations from the picture. These don't directly add capacity, it's critical for GO to eliminate all of them across the GTA and this will necessarily take part of GO's overall envelope. Perhaps these should have been a separate line item all along.

Also, grade separations add capacity to car drivers and pedestrians, not GO.

GO already has full priority at all intersections. They can run trains every 5 minutes without a grade separation perfectly well, but everything else will come to a complete halt. Rail-Street grade separations should be in the roadways budget accounting wise as they add capacity to the roadways, not the railways.

 

[TOareaFan]

Also, grade separations add capacity to car drivers and pedestrians, not GO.

GO already has full priority at all intersections. They can run trains every 5 minutes without a grade separation perfectly well, but everything else will come to a complete halt. Rail-Street grade separations should be in the roadways budget accounting wise as they add capacity to the roadways, not the railways.

Isn't that why ML "billed" Toronto something like $100 mil for road and utility works done as part of the work?

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Also, grade separations add capacity to car drivers and pedestrians, not GO.

GO already has full priority at all intersections. They can run trains every 5 minutes without a grade separation perfectly well, but everything else will come to a complete halt. Rail-Street grade separations should be in the roadways budget accounting wise as they add capacity to the roadways, not the railways.

For the most part your correct but you are discounting what happens when a grade crossing is damaged or reported to not be working properly. In that case rail traffic has to approach the crossing cautiously and come to a complete stop before the crossing. The conductor then detrains and must provide manual protection of the crossing making sure all vehicular traffic is stopped. Difficult to do at some of the busier crossings during the rush hour, especially if the gates aren't down or broken off. The train can then proceed over the crossing after which it will stop again to pick up said conductor before finally proceeding. This happens on a fairly regular basis, dare I say across the entire system it might be a daily occurrence.

 

[crs1026]

Isn't that why ML "billed" Toronto something like $100 mil for road and utility works done as part of the work?

All three underpasses required substantial relocation and new construction for sewers and water mains. I don't know the specific cost amounts or who paid for what. Toronto also got a pretty substantial roadway widening at the Weston Road bridge.

- Paul

 

[mdrejhon]

Also, grade separations add capacity to car drivers and pedestrians, not GO.

GO already has full priority at all intersections. They can run trains every 5 minutes without a grade separation perfectly well, but everything else will come to a complete halt. Rail-Street grade separations should be in the roadways budget accounting wise as they add capacity to the roadways, not the railways.

Both may need to work towards it.

But it's noteworthy that one of the criteria for permitting lighter trains on GO's network (e.g. European style SmartTrack trains) may require grade separations. Transport Canada is open to non-FRA EMUs on GO's network under certain conditions, though it is mainly pertaining to freight separation as well as possibly some form of Positive Train Control.

If this is the only way to get SmartTrack to proceed with lightweight EMUs, then it is fully possible that Metrolinx needs to proceed with all the grade separations necessary to pull off introduction of lightweight EMU cars that are otherwise at risk of killing passengers without being built to FRA standards.

In Canada/USA we go with protection by overbuilding the coach like a tank, while in Europe they appear to go with protection by avoiding things from happening (e.g. avoiding level crossings on critical commuter routes, using Positive Train Control, etc). The SmartTrack EMUs that have from time to time been proposed, are lighter weight EMUs -- not LRT types. Some of the Metrolinx pictograms have been the Stadler KISS trainset -- a non-FRA compliant EMU not currently allowed to run on Canadian railroads but that Transport Canada has indicated an openness (in some Metrolinx PDFs) to under certain criteria (i.e. making the GO network grade/road/freight separated, or other as-yet-undecided criteria).

Kind of a Catch-22.

So Metrolinx might simply have choice but to pay for many of the grade separations for a quick Transport Canada approval of whatever shiny EMU electric train Metrolinx buys for the dense-infilled-station routes like SmartTrack. With our train choices starting to gradually limit as they might not want to go with Bombardier this time, given their delays delivering to TTC and New York Subway, etc (they're also steaming mad at Bombardier, too). Our choices of trains greatly expand if we eliminate the FRA requirement -- by making the SmartTrack route completely grade separated (if that should be a pre-requisite enforced by Transport Canada to permit lightweight EMUs).

But that might be moot. It's ultimately the same pocket (taxpayer), just a different budget. I hope proper funding is raised though -- the next Fed government may provide a route to an alternate solution to the Hydro One sale, for example (not the ideal source of fund -- personally I'd prefer careful/creative road tolling, and/or a single percent extra sales tax going 100% to transit, etc. Both highly unpopular ideas -- but would be less unpopular for many than Hydro One sale).
__

Related Topic: Whatever next feds get elected, need to re-expand Transport Canada to accommodate Metrolinx's big ask of approving any EMU order, relating to any GO RER projects such as SmartTrack... After the Transport Canada cuts by Harper, re-staffing is needed -- stat -- begin now -- or we're just running SmartTrack GO RER section with the 12-car bilevels and it won't be terribly fast at all the infill station spacing, even with electric locomotives.

 

[Jonny5]

The 'average' rider has clued in to the concourse change, at least in the afternoon.
The York street end of my regular afternoon Lakeshore West train has gone from an average 50% seated load, to being crush loaded ever day this week.

I now just walk four cars back to the center accessibility coach and have all the space I want to myself.
The photo is from after departing Union last night. 9 passengers on the top level. 13 on the lower and middle levels.

 

[TOareaFan]

^just curious....what time is your regular train?

 

[robmausser]

Fair point - but parse out the amount of that billion point three that is attributed to UPX, versus the amount that's attributed to GO. The GO side didn't get much for its half billion, considering there were a few mid day trains before all this work.

- Paul

Firstly, I really do not think that this is the maximum amount of trains they can do on the upgraded tracks. They are easing into it for several reasons: they need the actual trains to exist, they need the crews, they also need to make sure they don't muck up the schedules with the UPX.

Secondly, the majority of the cost was for elements (the over and underpasses) that will allow a 4th track to be laid, which will then offer a significant increase in service.

Its not like they spent half a billion for an extra train, and now its going to cost half a billion to lay down another track.

You can't just look at the current state and claim that this is what all this money and work was for: its for a much bigger picture: more trains when they arrive and are available, more trackage when its laid, GO RER, Smarttrack etc etc.

 

[TOareaFan]

^doesn't a large part of the existing fleet sit idle in offpeak hours? Are you suggesting evening and weekend service could not be added here because there are not enough trains?

 

[robmausser]

^doesn't a large part of the existing fleet sit idle in offpeak hours? Are you suggesting evening and weekend service could not be added here because there are not enough trains?

It does and it doesn't. Some of it isn't idle but dead heading and moving around the system to prepare for the peak times.

However that is one of the three reasons I posted for the lack of more trains: trains that sit around do not need crews! The GO crews are already stretched thin. Getting crews to work weekends/evenings is not like someone working a shift at Starbucks, there are negotiations and what not. They have a Union.

Training new crews isn't like getting a job as a barista, its a very complex job with tons...tons of training and safety protocols.

The area from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant is also CN trackage. They have negotiations with GO for the weekends to be unabated by GO trains currently. Those negotiations will have to change if we want weekend service to MP. Union to Bramalea is easier.

This service will come soon, it just needs to be worked out.

 

[TOareaFan]

It does and it doesn't. Some of it isn't idle but dead heading and moving around the system to prepare for the peak times.

However that is one of the three reasons I posted for the lack of more trains: trains that sit around do not need crews! The GO crews are already stretched thin. Getting crews to work weekends/evenings is not like someone working a shift at Starbucks, there are negotiations and what not. They have a Union.

Training new crews isn't like getting a job as a barista, its a very complex job with tons...tons of training and safety protocols.

Yes...so it was, either, bad planning (ie. the construction work is over 5 years old so those things could have been dealt with if the intent was to add evenings/weekends service) or no planning (ie. they never planned to do anything more than re-introduce a slightly improved mid-day service once the money was spent.

The area from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant is also CN trackage. They have negotiations with GO for the weekends to be unabated by GO trains currently. Those negotiations will have to change if we want weekend service to MP. Union to Bramalea is easier.

Again......5 years is a long time while construction was underway......and while I am not a fan of ending significant amounts of the service at Bramalea (traffic within Brampton at rush hours is horrible and inducing people from all over town to select Bramalea as their station would only make it worse), weekend and evening service to/from there may not be all that bad (particularly weekend).

This service will come soon, it just needs to be worked out.

Soon has different definitions and some of us have been hearing it for a long enough time that you wonder what definition is in use. Today....in a tweet on the matter GO actually just described it as "Long term potential"

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

^doesn't a large part of the existing fleet sit idle in offpeak hours? Are you suggesting evening and weekend service could not be added here because there are not enough trains?

I get that the trains physically exist, but do the employees? Hasn't Vegeta Skyline been saying for a few years that they are having issues bringing the staffing levels up for all day bidirectional service?

 

[TOareaFan]

I get that the trains physically exist, but do the employees? Hasn't Vegeta Skyline been saying for a few years that they are having issues bringing the staffing levels up for all day bidirectional service?

I think he has.....and while I have no doubt about the factual element of that statement....recruitment is part of their job.....and if they are not getting the job done then they deserve criticism.

Whenever any business launches an expansion plan, sourcing people is (and should be) part of the plan.......it is, typically, a backward process....."to launch our new service/product on 'X' day what kind of people and how many do we need.......what kind of training do they need and how long pre-launch date do they need to start....ok, then we have to hire by 'Y' to be ready." Like i said if staffing is the reason they are not adding more than they are at this time (and to be fair, I have only seen people here say that, no one from GO has answered any of my inquiries with "we don't have a enough staff") then that is a management failure that needs to be addressed.

 

[robmausser]

Yes...so it was, either, bad planning (ie. the construction work is over 5 years old so those things could have been dealt with if the intent was to add evenings/weekends service) or no planning (ie. they never planned to do anything more than re-introduce a slightly improved mid-day service once the money was spent.



Again......5 years is a long time while construction was underway......and while I am not a fan of ending significant amounts of the service at Bramalea (traffic within Brampton at rush hours is horrible and inducing people from all over town to select Bramalea as their station would only make it worse), weekend and evening service to/from there may not be all that bad (particularly weekend).



Soon has different definitions and some of us have been hearing it for a long enough time that you wonder what definition is in use. Today....in a tweet on the matter GO actually just described it as "Long term potential"

Any well run business wouldn't just suddenly ramp up to full capacity out of nowhere. You need to build up demand, you also need to go through a teething process where you ensure everything is running smoothly.

Would you be sining the same tune you are now if GO suddenly launched a massive service expansion on the Kitchener Line, and oops, trains are 98% empty on weekends, oh look, UPX trains were delayed by up to 50% because of conflicts with GO trains, massive train delays, freight on the Bramalea -> Mount Pleasant sub is interfering with service.

This is a massive change and you just can't flip a switch and make it all happen at once, sorry.

 

[TOareaFan]

Any well run business wouldn't just suddenly ramp up to full capacity out of nowhere. You need to build up demand, you also need to go through a teething process where you ensure everything is running smoothly.

Would you be sining the same tune you are now if GO suddenly launched a massive service expansion on the Kitchener Line, and oops, trains are 98% empty on weekends, oh look, UPX trains were delayed by up to 50% because of conflicts with GO trains, massive train delays, freight on the Bramalea -> Mount Pleasant sub is interfering with service.

This is a massive change and you just can't flip a switch and make it all happen at once, sorry.

again, it is not a massive change.....it is a slight (very) slight improvement on the service cancelled in 2010.

And I am not singing any song....I am asking why it seems you can run hourly trains mid day without worrying about interfering with UPX trains but you can't do it in the evening....or the weekend.

If you are worried about starting a new service but have them "98%" empty...I would suggest you might have more cause to be worried at 2 pm on a Tuesday than with weekend and evening service.