[smallspy]

And I am not singing any song....I am asking why it seems you can run hourly trains mid day without worrying about interfering with UPX trains but you can't do it in the evening....or the weekend.

Mid-day is easy - all of the trains are downtown, or close to it.

Evenings and weekends are a completely different story, as at that point the majority of equipment is now stored at the far ends of the lines. And to make them work, sometimes they have to do funny things, like deadheading trains 150km or having the first return train at noon.

To be honest, despite the fact that the higher-ups at Metrolinx have been planning the off-peak service on the Kitchener line for a while now this launch still has the feel and smell of being rushed and poorly planned. CN's operations staff didn't find out about it until last week. Operating crews are only now signing for the work. GO's own customer service staff didn't see the schedules until Tuesday.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[robmausser]

again, it is not a massive change....

You completely misunderstand me.

I am saying that the service levels you wish for, IS a massive change.

This isn't a massive change that GO/Metrolinx has done exactly for the reasons I posted.

I can't imagine how you could misunderstand me given the points I have made, unless you are only trying to further your own opinions. Please pay attention.

 

[robmausser]

And I am not singing any song....I am asking why it seems you can run hourly trains mid day without worrying about interfering with UPX trains but you can't do it in the evening....or the weekend.

I have already given several reasons. Either read them or continue to be upset at something that is not something to be upset about if you understood the immense work adding evening and weekend service is.

Its not like we are going to have to wait another 5 years for it to happen and another billion dollars.

Its just around the corner, but if they instead have waited to upgrade all services you would be complaining now that nothing has happened and you would complain for all the teething headaches it would create when they did it in this fashion.

This is all they can do at this point in time, for the reasons I have indicated.

Mid-day service is the easiest and quickest thing to implement the soonest on a peak service system.

Would you rather they waited another year for mid-day as it will take this long to negotiate and plan evening, weekend which is harder and takes more process?

Or why don't we have mid day while we can.

 

[TOareaFan]

I have already given several reasons. Either read them or continue to be upset at something that is not something to be upset about if you understood the immense work adding evening and weekend service is.

Its not like we are going to have to wait another 5 years for it to happen and another billion dollars.

Its just around the corner, but if they instead have waited to upgrade all services you would be complaining now that nothing has happened and you would complain for all the teething headaches it would create when they did it in this fashion.

This is all they can do at this point in time, for the reasons I have indicated.

Mid-day service is the easiest and quickest thing to implement the soonest on a peak service system.

Would you rather they waited another year for mid-day as it will take this long to negotiate and plan evening, weekend which is harder and takes more process?

Or why don't we have mid day while we can.

Perhaps you mssed where I questioned the interference with UPX and the fear of 98% empty...but, I guess, I just figure that 5 years is plenty of time to plan for hourly evening and weekend service (including mid day).....seems you disagree....we'll have to leave it at that.

 

[robmausser]

I guess I just figure that 5 years is plenty of time to plan for hourly evening and weekend service (including mid day).....seems you disagree....we'll have to leave it at that.

Plenty of time to plan, but planning and doing are different things altogether.

You need to do real life testing, teething, etc. You can't do that until the trackage is actually there.

Many systems and new routes need to undergo hours upon hours of real life testing before they are allowed. You physically need the crew and trainsets to do this. You need the track to do this. Its a requirement of Transport Canada.

50% is only on paper.

Furthurmore, whether in government or in business the more you do at once, the cost grows exponentially.

Doing 2 projects at once doesnt cost twice the amount, it costs 3 times, due to the overhead of planning and departmental growth you need.

If they were to not incrementally grow this line, the cost would balloon. Metrolinx has a budget.

There is a lot more to consider than just tracks and trains.

 

[TOareaFan]

Mid-day is easy - all of the trains are downtown, or close to it.

Evenings and weekends are a completely different story, as at that point the majority of equipment is now stored at the far ends of the lines.

Always appreciate, and respect, your knowledge but I have to ask....is that not just a function of how they currently operate? The trains are at the end of the line because after they have done their one peak time run they are done for the night so they park them? In a world where they had bi-directional off peak service would the trains not just keep running at the end of peak (or, at least, some of them would)?

To be honest, despite the fact that the higher-ups at Metrolinx have been planning the off-peak service on the Kitchener line for a while now this launch still has the feel and smell of being rushed and poorly planned. CN's operations staff didn't find out about it until last week. Operating crews are only now signing for the work. GO's own customer service staff didn't see the schedules until Tuesday.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Interesting perspective....seems strange that something that was (or should have been) 5 years in planning would end up getting thrown together at the last minute.....no?

 

[TOareaFan]

Plenty of time to plan, but planning and doing are different things altogether.

You need to do real life testing, teething, etc. You can't do that until the trackage is actually there.

Many systems and new routes need to undergo hours upon hours of real life testing before they are allowed. You physically need the crew and trainsets to do this. You need the track to do this. Its a requirement of Transport Canada.

50% is only on paper.

What testing went into this mid day service addition then? Were there secret mid day runs of trains back and forth on this line that none of us were aware of?

Furthurmore, whether in government or in business the more you do at once, the cost grows exponentially.

Doing 2 projects at once doesnt cost twice the amount, it costs 3 times, due to the overhead of planning and departmental growth you need.

If they were to not incrementally grow this line, the cost would balloon. Metrolinx has a budget.

There is a lot more to consider than just tracks and trains.

I guess I don't see hourly bi-directional trains at, say, 10 pm on a Tuesday as a separate project than hourly bi-directional trains at 2 pm on a Tuesday. When we massively increased the Lakeshore lines from hourly to half hourly did it only happen mid day first to test it out or were they able to, you know, do it mid day, evenings and weekends all at the same time?

 

[robmausser]

What testing went into this mid day service addition then? Were there secret mid day runs of trains back and forth on this line that none of us were aware of?



I guess I don't see hourly bi-directional trains at, say, 10 pm on a Tuesday as a separate project than hourly bi-directional trains at 2 pm on a Tuesday. When we massively increased the Lakeshore lines from hourly to half hourly did it only happen mid day first to test it out or were they able to, you know, do it mid day, evenings and weekends all at the same time?

There are testing trains all the time on the line, Drum118 takes pictures of them you should check out his Flickr.

Midday trains on Kitchener line existed prior to the work as you stated, but in less form (less trains and to Bramalea) and 30 minute trains are infill of existing GO train systems on Lakeshore line. Both require less work and testing. But yes they were tested, of course.

Its more work, more planning, more training, more testing and exponentially more effort to start a service when no systems were ever running.

You can't do it all on paper. The system needs to exist.

If you don't like it take it up with Tranport Canada. But considering we've never had a major accident with a GO train, i'd like to keep it this way.

 

[smallspy]

Always appreciate, and respect, your knowledge but I have to ask....is that not just a function of how they currently operate? The trains are at the end of the line because after they have done their one peak time run they are done for the night so they park them? In a world where they had bi-directional off peak service would the trains not just keep running at the end of peak (or, at least, some of them would)?

Well, yes and no. Sure, they store the trains at the end of the Lakeshore Line, but they also run full off-peak service to the ends of the lines as well. That won't be the case with the other lines, at least not for the foreseeable future. So how do you schedule your trains, do you base them out of Willowbrook or out of one of the outposts? Is there enough spare equipment there at the times necessary to be able to run the service projected? Will the equipment have time to be serviced and fuelled, both before it goes into service and once it's actually running its runs?

For the time being, there is not the equipment available to run a reverse peak service. While I know that they eventually will, this is just another complication that needs to be taken into account as well.

Interesting perspective....seems strange that something that was (or should have been) 5 years in planning would end up getting thrown together at the last minute.....no?

I guess it depends on when the various decisions need to be made by the powers that be. Like I said, the higher-ups at GO have planned for and known that this was going to happen for quite some time. But CN may have only given them the okay to do it a month ago, which gives scheduling only about 2 weeks to come up not only with a timetable, but also the crew schedules and train cycles.

No matter what, until such a time that GO is dispatching their own trains, they are going to be at the mercy of CN and CP.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

According to the new schedule, the first afternoon rush hour trains tie up for the night at Georgetown at 16:42 and 17:28. There are outbound trains on several routes departing Union after 17:00 that don't come out of midday layover until then. A yardful of trains sits parked in Georgetown all weekend. I don't see any huge shortage or logistical or scheduling issue here.

I have done workplace planning for jobs that had training periods of up to 9 years. Competent HR/Training departments know how to plan for a 2-year apprenticeship period. As noted, they have had 5+ years to work on the Georgetown staffing. GO says it will double the number of trains per week system wide over the next so many years. If they aren't doing a full workforce plan, there is something seriously wrong.

GO may be ramping up cautiously so operations run smoothly - if so, less secrecy is desirable. GO is paranoid about keeping schedules under wraps until the last minute. (Apparently there were painful miscues with Queens Park back when the Niagara summer service began, and someone said "Never again". That's a poor reason for dysfunctional behaviour towards local transit, railways, and their own departments)

Is there any evidence that GO is actively pursuing a Phase II? With RER, ST, and other things on their plate it's possible that this will go back to the bottom drawer for a while. The GTS project team has clearly stood down. If they did just a little more work, they would have a far better place to take a pause.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

There are testing trains all the time on the line, Drum118 takes pictures of them you should check out his Flickr.

I ocassionally visit his flickr site...and certainly enjoy seeing the sample of great pics that he posts here....just don't recall any pictures of his lately that showed testing of mid day GO trains on this corridor....maybe over the weekend I will have another look for them.

 

[Jonny5]

^just curious....what time is your regular train?

This summer it is the 5:23pm departure.

 

[TOareaFan]

This summer it is the 5:23pm departure.

surprised there is that much room in any car on a 5:23 departure.

 

[Jonny5]

surprised there is that much room in any car on a 5:23 departure.

People are lazy. They cram into the car at the top of the staircase, no matter how full it is, rather than walk 20 seconds down the platform to a different car.

Same train today, just departing Clarkson. 67 seats empty on the top level of the same car. I bet people are still in the isle of the top level standing 3 cars forward.

 

[drum118]

People are lazy. They cram into the car at the top of the staircase, no matter how full it is, rather than walk 20 seconds down the platform to a different car.

Same train today, just departing Clarkson. 67 seats empty on the top level of the same car. I bet people are still in the isle of the top level standing 3 cars forward.

It not people being lazy, but how close to their car is as well how fast they can get out of the station. The longer you are away, the longer it takes to get out of the lot.