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TransitBart said:
Question: if we wanted to do this at light speed is eight years the best we can do or is that a leisurely pace?
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It's a low-risk pace. Promise low and overdeliver.

Depends on what you want to achieve as an end goal. The segment between the existing GO line and the CP connection at Ritson Road has some engineering challenges and significant civil work. It won't be quick in any scenario.

If the goal is peak only service, there is little need for grade separations east of Oshawa. However, if the goal is all day service, the accident exposure is higher and it would be prudent to grade separate some crossings. That would add to the design and construction workload. If the goal is electrification - then it has to dovetail into the timing of that.

I'm clearly the local pessimist here, but I wonder why everything has an end date of 2023-2024. Like maybe, the big spend in these projects will be some years out, so they can be promised today (and re-promised regularly) without any large spend happening before the next election. If Wynne doesn't get reelected (as appears likely) some other party will have to make the hard decisions whether to find the funds or shut the project down. If they slip a couple years, so what, answering for that will be somebody else's problem.

I would really like to pin the government down on which projects will be done by end of 2017. And 2018. And 2019.

- Paul
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
I agree having the existing Oshawa GO and the Thornton's Corners stations doesn't make sense. While it is an interesting comparison to Hamilton, here are come characteristics:
  • Hamilton:
    • Population: 519,949
    • Station distance: 1.5 km
    • Locations: city centre/waterfront
    • Current land uses: low to high density residential, commercial
  • Oshawa:
    • Population: 149,607
    • Station distance: 1.0 km
    • Locations: city edge/highway adjacent
    • Current land uses: agricultural, industrial, commercial, low density residential
If the geography was there to justify it (like Hamilton), I wouldn't be so concerned. But I am based on this.
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Yes, I can see that having four GO stations in a low-density area may not make much sense -- I presume many of them are basic suburban stations (like Appleby/Bronte) though I am wondering about the two stations in Oshawa and what the Oshawa densification plan is.

Hamilton is currently projected to have a 780,000 population by year 2041, about 40% more than today. I'm not sure Oshawa could keep up pace with that.
 
Update on project cost from this article. Looks to be $700 million. Could that include 401 overpass, 4 new stations, and an additional track to Bowmanville? http://www.durhamregion.com/news-st...nce-extends-go-train-service-into-clarington/

He said [sic. Transport Minister Del Duca] the Province is in negotiations with CP on the project and once the deal is finalized there will be a better understanding of when construction will begin on this $700 million project.
 
crs1026 said:
Depends on what you want to achieve as an end goal. The segment between the existing GO line and the CP connection at Ritson Road has some engineering challenges and significant civil work. It won't be quick in any scenario.
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I was just poring over maps. To do what's indicated by the maps released so far, it's an expensive bridge to cross not just the 401 with room to clear future widening, but also Victoria, a slip road and Champlain. And the curve is pretty tight both ends to attain the bridge.

crs1026 said:
I'm clearly the local pessimist here, but I wonder why everything has an end date of 2023-2024.
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"Pessimist" only relative to those who believe what they're told. I think many of the projects are excellent and needed. I'm just unsure on those ostensibly delivering them, and why.
crs1026 said:
I would really like to pin the government down on which projects will be done by end of 2017. And 2018. And 2019.
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When you look at how other nations do this (Australia, for instance, with very similar state finances to Canada's provinces, esp NSW and Victoria compared to Ontario) there's a much greater emphasis on doing it big and doing it in a time frame of five years or so. Mind you, they believe in rail for passenger, always have, it's a mindset that Ontarians are still not fully comfortable with, and thus the rah-rah fanfare for projects that should have been built years ago.

The pace is glacial. I still have to wonder if the private sector proposed to finance some of these projects, whether this Admin would support or oppose the idea? It would get a lot more projects done a lot faster and done right, at no more cost to the taxpayer due to greater efficiency. If this Admin is defeated next election (if the Tories actually run someone worth voting for this time) I just hope that all the projects do go ahead, at a faster pace, by going to a private/public finance model. I'm a Centrist, but when it comes to government dithering and self-aggrandisement, it's time to examine other options. Montreal just might be taking the right track on this. It's probably unfair and not linear to compare to Europe and Japan, but it's certainly fair to compare ourselves to our dopplegangers:

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects
http://ptv.vic.gov.au/projects/rail-projects/

Note on Hamilton's population v. Oshawa: Bear in mind that Hamilton includes now the ex-Wentworth county and population of it. That reduces the size of Hamilton *city proper* substantially.
 
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steveintoronto said:
I was just poring over maps. To do what's indicated by the maps released so far, it's an expensive bridge to cross not just the 401 with room to clear future widening, but also Victoria, a slip road and Champlain. And the curve is pretty tight both ends to attain the bridge.
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On the bright side, the vast majority of road crossings in the east end of Oshawa are already grade separated. There is one bridge to widen, but much of the rest is just culverts, grading, and trackwork. It's not an eight year project to build 9 miles of new track on CP, nor does it take that time to build 4 new stations.

When you look at how other nations do this (Australia, for instance, with very similar state finances to Canada's provinces, esp NSW and Victoria compared to Ontario) there's a much greater emphasis on doing it big and doing it in a time frame of five years or so.
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Until ML does the third track Guildwood-Liverpool, and the fourth track Guildwood-Scarboro-Union, there may not be capacity for many new trains. What was announced today may just be extensions of existing Oshawa runs, similar to how the new Hamilton trains were just extensions of Aldershot trains, and the new Kitchener trains are extensions of Georgetown trains. That doesn't take cars off the 401 west of Oshawa, it simply empties the Oshawa station parking lot and fills the lots at the four new stations. Not much gained for $700M.

That's why ML needs to figure out the Gantt chart of what needs to precede what, and what needs to happen faster than what, and put that out for politicians and the public to understand. Apparently they have been plugging away diligently at this project over the past couple of years, since the EA was finalised and filed. Who knew? Are we happy that they gave this priority, when they might have put more energy into the LSE projects, which may be prerequisites?

I never saw a Gantt chart that I didn't like.

- Paul
 
TorStar carrying the latest CP newswire copy:
Premier Kathleen Wynne announced a major expansion of GO Transit train service into Durham Region on Monday, but no one was saying how much the huge project will cost.
[...]
One of the biggest parts of the GO expansion in Durham Region will be construction of a new train bridge over Highway 401, said Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca.

“People should understand that building an overpass over a 400-series highway is not an insignificant undertaking between the design, procurement and actual construction,” he said.

“We’re not in a position to confirm the start date of the construction because we’re still finalizing the details with CP (Rail).”

GO Transit plans to use existing Canadian Pacific Railway lines north of Highway 401 for the extension of its passenger rail service, and the province said it can’t put a price on the full project until it completes negotiations with CP. The provincial transit agency Metrolinx is leading the negotiations with CP.

“Metrolinx is in discussions with the corridor owner, CP Rail, related to the planned extension of GO rail service between Oshawa and Bowmanville,” said Transportation Ministry spokesman Bob Nicholls.

“Subsequent to the results of the negotiations, further analysis of the estimated capital and operating costs will be required. [...]
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https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/06/20/go-extending-service-to-bowmanville-by-2024.html

They've jumped the gun yet again...
 
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Referring Lakeshore West riders to take the TTC east from Long Branch this morning was a poorly thought out idea. Most of these riders do not know "the TTC" there is a CLRV streetcar that comes every 10-15 minutes that will take them on a 75 - 90 minute trip downtown, complete with a forced transfer and a detour.

At least 1,000 people would have been better off waiting out the delay instead of that mess. The hundreds of people left behind at 501 stops en route would have been better off too. There were trains kicking out hundreds of passengers telling them to get in a 1,000 person line for the streetcar only 15 minutes before service resumed.

Tell everyone to chill out and wait at the stations.
 
crs1026 said:
Until ML does the third track Guildwood-Liverpool, and the fourth track Guildwood-Scarboro-Union, there may not be capacity for many new trains. What was announced today may just be extensions of existing Oshawa runs, similar to how the new Hamilton trains were just extensions of Aldershot trains, and the new Kitchener trains are extensions of Georgetown trains. That doesn't take cars off the 401 west of Oshawa, it simply empties the Oshawa station parking lot and fills the lots at the four new stations. Not much gained for $700M.
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I can imagine some people switching to GO once stations are closer to the interior of Oshawa. Some trips could become Kiss-and-ride trips thanks to more convenient access to stations.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Great announcements recently. Oshawa should be faster. I can't wait to see if they do something for Milton and Richmond Hill.
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GO is currently tendering for the engineering services to layover tracks 11 and 12 for Milton.

That would be 33% more than the 9 currently running.

As to the timing on that, not sure.

We are, for now, seeming much further away from AD2W on this corridor.

Perhaps the much overdue 10th train in September?
 
Northern Light said:
GO is currently tendering for the engineering services to layover tracks 11 and 12 for Milton.

That would be 33% more than the 9 currently running.

As to the timing on that, not sure.

We are, for now, seeming much further away from AD2W on this corridor.

Perhaps the much overdue 10th train in September?
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Taking forever I see. At least we got something. Now, for Markham...
 
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