Northern Light
Superstar
Yes but many of those are from areas w/poor transit and pedestrian conditions to same; and both stations lack a strong destination.
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Yes but many of those are from areas w/poor transit and pedestrian conditions to same; and both stations lack a strong destination.
nfitz
Superstar
... So from Union, the only existing stations that are less than 10 km, are Danforth, Bloor, and Exhibition.
From Union, yes.Danforth does qualify, 8.4km
bobbob911
Active Member
This is actually pretty sad - not only is the set of stations laughably small, and not only does this imply that the cost for other trips within the 416 to Union are actually going to increase more to compensate. But I think this puts a pretty solid nail in the coffin of Smarttrack ever coming in at the cost of a TTC ride.
EDIT: The G&M article does state "Although the formula will be tweaked to allow for $3.70 fares on trips between Union Station and Mimico or Scarborough stations, both of which are longer than 10 kilometres ". Would be good to clarify but at least that increases the number of stations to 5. As a Scarborough GO rider this makes me happier, and yet at the same time if Guildwood and Eglinton are not discounted it will mean that everyone will drive to Scarborough GO station and the parking lot will get full way faster than it does now.
EDIT: The G&M article does state "Although the formula will be tweaked to allow for $3.70 fares on trips between Union Station and Mimico or Scarborough stations, both of which are longer than 10 kilometres ". Would be good to clarify but at least that increases the number of stations to 5. As a Scarborough GO rider this makes me happier, and yet at the same time if Guildwood and Eglinton are not discounted it will mean that everyone will drive to Scarborough GO station and the parking lot will get full way faster than it does now.
torontocolin
Active Member
They're including Scarborough and Mimico at the new 3.70 fare.
I'd love to know what their models say. It seems to me like the most potential ridership growth would come from those living within Toronto but outside of the range of the subway, where GO would make the biggest impact on their commute times. Mimico and Scarborough are good examples of this, but Bloor and Danforth not so much. Weston, Kennedy, Eglinton, Kipling, and Long Branch all seem like they'd be potentially big draws, but they were all just cut out of the range.
Of course, that's very Union-focused. If you're travelling Weston to Bloor or Kennedy to Danforth, I would assume you get the new 3.70 fare. And since they're trying to draw off-peak travelers, maybe that's what they're going after.
I'd love to know what their models say. It seems to me like the most potential ridership growth would come from those living within Toronto but outside of the range of the subway, where GO would make the biggest impact on their commute times. Mimico and Scarborough are good examples of this, but Bloor and Danforth not so much. Weston, Kennedy, Eglinton, Kipling, and Long Branch all seem like they'd be potentially big draws, but they were all just cut out of the range.
Of course, that's very Union-focused. If you're travelling Weston to Bloor or Kennedy to Danforth, I would assume you get the new 3.70 fare. And since they're trying to draw off-peak travelers, maybe that's what they're going after.
nfitz
Superstar
That seems arbitrary. Mimico is less than 10 km as the crow flies, so I can kind of see that (it's quite a bit more with the track curving around the bay). But Scarborough (near Midland and St. Clair) is about 13 km away as the crow flies (13.76 when I measure along the track) - why then not include Oriole which is also about 13 km? Or Weston that's closer to 12 km? Or Kennedy (near Kennedy and Eglinton) which isn't that much further than Scarborough?They're including Scarborough and Mimico at the new 3.70 fare.
The communication on this seems very poor.
robmausser
Senior Member
They're including Scarborough and Mimico at the new 3.70 fare.
I'd love to know what their models say. It seems to me like the most potential ridership growth would come from those living within Toronto but outside of the range of the subway, where GO would make the biggest impact on their commute times. Mimico and Scarborough are good examples of this, but Bloor and Danforth not so much. Weston, Kennedy, Eglinton, Kipling, and Long Branch all seem like they'd be potentially big draws, but they were all just cut out of the range.
Of course, that's very Union-focused. If you're travelling Weston to Bloor or Kennedy to Danforth, I would assume you get the new 3.70 fare. And since they're trying to draw off-peak travelers, maybe that's what they're going after.
Still should include Weston, Guildwood, Eglinton, Long Branch, Kennedy, Kipling as well.
Downsview Park would probably never get added; the TTC and Metrolinx want to do everything in their power to make the ridership numbers of the Spadina Extension go up. They've proven this by killing buses to York U.
Same goes for Oriel, it would only help kill Sheppard Subways paltry ridership.
Etobicoke North also not because its getting demolished.
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torontocolin
Active Member
That seems arbitrary. Mimico is less than 10 km as the crow flies, so I can kind of see that (it's quite a bit more with the track curving around the bay). But Scarborough (near Midland and St. Clair) is about 13 km away as the crow flies (13.76 when I measure along the track) - why then not include Oriole which is also about 13 km? Or Weston that's closer to 12 km? Or Kennedy (near Kennedy and Eglinton) which isn't that much further than Scarborough?
The communication on this seems very poor.
From a "fairness" perspective I couldn't tell you. From a strategic perspective, I suspect it's because the Lakeshore lines have more available capacity and also because the AD2W nature of those lines means they're more likely to draw off-peak commuters than Kipling, Kennedy, Oriole, or Weston, where you'd mostly be loading more peak commuters onto already full trains. Maybe those change when those lines see true AD2W service.
Of course, Weston has the UPX trains which could theoretically hold more (though they're already pretty packed at peak) so maybe that blows that theory up.
nfitz
Superstar
Guildwood? That's over 20 km from Union. That opens a big kettle of worms - what about other stations that are 20 km out, like Cooksville, Port Credit (which is closer to 19 km as the crow flies), Langstaff, or Milliken?Still should include Weston, Guildwood, Eglinton, Long Branch, Kennedy, Kipling as well.
If Guildwood get's added? It's only about 14.5 km as the crow flies.Downsview Park would probably never get added
torontocolin
Active Member
Still should include Weston, Guildwood, Eglinton, Long Branch, Kennedy, Kipling as well.
Downsview Park would probably never get added; the TTC and Metrolinx want to do everything in their power to make the ridership numbers of the Spadina Extension go up. They've proven this by killing buses to York U.
Same goes for Oriel, it would only help kill Sheppard Subways paltry ridership.
Etobicoke North also not because its getting demolished.
What's wrong with poor Rouge Hill? Or Agincourt?
The problem with including all the Toronto stations at a flat fare without appropriately scaling to the 905 is it heavily incentivizes 905 riders to drive to already overloaded Toronto station parking lots and pick up the trains there. Why use Pickering GO when it's a short drive to Rouge Hill and your fare is $5 less each way?
Northern Light
Superstar
What's wrong with poor Rouge Hill? Or Agincourt?
The problem with including all the Toronto stations at a flat fare without appropriately scaling to the 905 is it heavily incentivizes 905 riders to drive to already overloaded Toronto station parking lots and pick up the trains there. Why use Pickering GO when it's a short drive to Rouge Hill and your fare is $5 less each way?
Here's a thought.
Most of us here think GO should charge for parking.
This idea generally goes nowhere, because of '905' commuters whose transit choices are often poor vs driving to and parking at the GO stn.
How about charging for parking at all stations inside the 416 (City of Toronto), but offsetting that by extending the $3.70 fare to all trips within Toronto on the GO system.
I'm fairly sure this would actually be a net revenue generator for Metrolinx; with the added bonus of not annoying the '905' folks unduly; and I suspect it would drive much higher ridership inside the City, in turn being a politically beneficial gesture inside Toronto.
Extending this to '905' in the future would wait on better local transit and demand from GO riders in those areas; and might look similar (ie. all trips within York Region at $3.70) or might instead result in pro-rated reduction in distance fares instead.
nfitz
Superstar
Ah, news flash. Metrolinx has confirmed that it doesn't include Weston and is only up to 10 km (Mimico is just less than 10 km as the crow flies, and was explicitly included in the press release). So no Scarborough.They're including Scarborough and Mimico at the new 3.70 fare.
News flash, the Globe has in the same thread confirmed that Metrolinx is wrong. So includes Scarborough.
I'm getting me some popcorn!
Edit. News Flash - Toronto Star has confirmed that Metrolinx is wrong about Weston too - and that there's also fares that are going down, but to less than the minimum.
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bobbob911
Active Member
Charging for GO parking I think fundamentally misunderstands the nature of GO stations. Almost without exception they are designed with absolutely terrible TTC connections. So, how are people supposed to get to them without driving?
If everyone is driving, then reducing the fare by $2 and adding a $5 parking charge is guaranteed to accomplish nothing but disincentive transit usage.
If everyone is driving, then reducing the fare by $2 and adding a $5 parking charge is guaranteed to accomplish nothing but disincentive transit usage.
Northern Light
Superstar
Charging for GO parking I think fundamentally misunderstands the nature of GO stations. Almost without exception they are designed with absolutely terrible TTC connections. So, how are people supposed to get to them without driving?
If everyone is driving, then reducing the fare by $2 and adding a $5 parking charge is guaranteed to accomplish nothing but disincentive transit usage.
Would you care to elaborate?
It seems to me, that a cursory look at LSE GO stations shows Danforth has no parking, Scarborough is on the Markham Rd route which is frequent (runs on St. Clair), Eglinton is on the Morningside route which serves UTSC and is fairly frequent during the school year, Guildwood is on the same route, while Rouge Hill is served by Lawrence.
LSW is more problematic past Exhibition, which does not offer parking, and has a streetcar to its door, but still neither Mimico nor Long Branch have a large amount of parking and both have TTC service to the door, more than 1 route at LB.
On the K-W line, Bloor already has no parking, while Weston's parking isn't that large..........
On Stouffville Kennedy is at Kennedy Station for goodness sake, while Agincourt is served by the Sheppard Bus and is easy walking distance to the Kennedy service as well.
Over at Barrie, Downsview Park is parking-free and integrated into the subway.
While the RH line is shifting Oriole north to integrate w/Leslie Station on the Sheppard line.
I'm hard pressed to see where charging for parking will cause a drastic inconvenience.
I would further add, I expect the parking to be managed to aim for a lot utilization rate of 80-90%.
Meaning the price will be set with an eye not to discouraging use.
I expect for every rider who switched to TTC, another driver would soon find the empty space and join the ridership pool.
I can add here, that the TTC eliminated free parking some years ago, but has not seen a large-scale reduction in use of its parking lots.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
^ Not if those potential parking charges go 100% towards fare integration.
This is a great first step in making GO an accessible alternative to a much longer and slower TTC trip. It is also heartening to see that it overwhelmingly Torontonians that will benefit which is a good sign that Metrolinx isn't just building RER for the 905.
Now it is up to Toronto to put it's money where it's transit mouth is an cough up enough money for GO to bring down the fares to the same as TTC ones with full integration and extend the 10km zone to include Long Branch, Weston, and Kennedy and ideally every GO station in Toronto.. The ball is now in Toronto's court to put up or shut up.
This is a great first step in making GO an accessible alternative to a much longer and slower TTC trip. It is also heartening to see that it overwhelmingly Torontonians that will benefit which is a good sign that Metrolinx isn't just building RER for the 905.
Now it is up to Toronto to put it's money where it's transit mouth is an cough up enough money for GO to bring down the fares to the same as TTC ones with full integration and extend the 10km zone to include Long Branch, Weston, and Kennedy and ideally every GO station in Toronto.. The ball is now in Toronto's court to put up or shut up.
bobbob911
Active Member
Its not so much that the GO stations aren't directly beside major roads, its that the stations themselves are set back fairly substantially from those roads (and I can't speak to all roads near GO stations but St. Clair and Eglinton are actively hostile to pedestrians)
Add to that the challenge of trying to time your arrival to the GO station on a TTC bus to catch the train on 20-30 minute headways, and the need to pay a TTC and GO fare, and I just don't think it makes sense for the vast majority of riders.
My commute from Scarborough to Union is 25 minutes including driving to the station. If I had to catch a TTC bus to get there I expect it would at least double on average.
Add to that the challenge of trying to time your arrival to the GO station on a TTC bus to catch the train on 20-30 minute headways, and the need to pay a TTC and GO fare, and I just don't think it makes sense for the vast majority of riders.
My commute from Scarborough to Union is 25 minutes including driving to the station. If I had to catch a TTC bus to get there I expect it would at least double on average.