[robmausser]

It depended on the time of day, not all trips did the full route. however there were back and forth trains to Allandale at some point during the weekend day.

Yes and now more go to Allandale, thankfully. Makes no sense to terminate a train on a dead track.

 

[robmausser]

I don’t think CP is the enemy here. The obstacle is the amount of capital investment that’s needed to keep freight fluid. There is virtually no place to park a 10,000 foot freight train in that zone so that GO can blast through. It is not reasonable to expect CP to impose a curfew mornings and evenings all the way from Cambridge to Lambton to expedite GO service Milton-Cambridge. Remove CP’s ability to use both tracks west of Milton for meets and it really messes up their operation.

We won’t see express GO trains overtaking Milton local trains. It is possbible to extend a couple of the Milton trains to Cambridge, and that might allow GO to add trains at peak, by using Cambridge as a layover point.... the Milton layover yard is full. But the capital required to add track on CP for only a couple of trains probably is a non-starter under ML’s Business Case formula.



That Galt to Toronto RDC has a special place in my adolescence. Let’s just say that the devil-may-care culture that let that train run as it did isn’t around any more.
The Hespeler-Guelph line was never engineered for more than turn of the last century speeds. I bet it could be upgraded quite nicely. If ML has an agreement with CN for the Halton line, and once the fourth track is in place east of Bramalea, and once the Guelph-Silver segment is upgraded, it’s quite feasible for ML to interleave peak trains from Cambridge to Guelph with the Kitchener peak trains, and if they run express east of Bramalea the overall timing might be more favourable. So it’s not as absurd a proposition as one might think.

But yeah, I’d love to ride that Budd car through Milton one more time ;-)

- Paul

While the CP route through Milton may be faster, its a non starter.

Meanwhile, people are driving/busing up to Kitchener GO from Cambridge to get to work.

The distance from Guelph to Cambridge is nearly the same to Kitchener. If people are willing to travel from Kitchener, then they should be from Guelph. Especially those who are willing to bus up to Kitchener GO.

This should just be a spur line of the Kitchener GO line. Some trains go to Kitchener and have others go to Cambridge. It could be renamed the Waterloo Line. (which is the name of the region)

 

[rbt]

Yes and now more go to Allandale, thankfully. Makes no sense to terminate a train on a dead track.

When everyone on the train can fit onto a single bus, it's far far cheaper to run the bus.

But yeah, if they believe they can further grow ridership then the short-term cost is probably worth the long-term gain.

 

[nfitz]

Meanwhile, people are driving/busing up to Kitchener GO from Cambridge to get to work.

Why would they be busing that, when the travel time from Kitchener GO to Union is 123 minutes, or 111 minutes on the sole express.

Meanwhile the existing Go Bus/Milton train combo (that's being cancelled next week because it's not used enough) is only 88 to 91 minutes from the GO Parking lot in Hespeler at 401/25?

It can't be because they are heading to downtown Toronto at peak.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Why would they be busing that, when the travel time from Kitchener GO to Union is 123 minutes, or 111 minutes on the sole express.

Meanwhile the existing Go Bus/Milton train combo (that's being cancelled next week because it's not used enough) is only 88 to 91 minutes from the GO Parking lot in Hespeler at 401/25?

It can't be because they are heading to downtown Toronto at peak.

Because people often don't think of taking a bus - they drive to a train, no matter the time consequences. I don't understand it, but it's very common.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Man we need more weekend train service.

Stouffville, Milton, Kitchener, Richmond Hill... should all have some limited weekend service.

By 2021 Kitchener (Mt Pleasant and Stoufville should be taken care of.)

 

[Bureaucromancer]

As far as Galt goes I'm holding out hope that they propose a Guelph Shuttle rather than branching service that accomplishes very little in terms of being a usable all-day Waterloo/Guelph link. Seems like the perfect spot for either a Hydrail demo or to re-use Ottawa's Talents. I doubt it would be hard to get buy-in on local funding if this becomes about frequent all-day service.

 

[smallspy]

But I think we may overestimate CP's value gained if they saw that double track put in place. Railroading is all about "stand on your head because we aren't going to spend the capital to give you shoes" - CP makes do with what it has. They recently installed the CTC at Guelph Jct...perhaps they were hoping GO would act on Galt and they could get GO to pay, but in the end they did as much as they really needed and they live with any deficiencies in the result. Not really any different than the Bala Sub (which does not have 2-way service) or the Halton (which only got 2-way when GO paid for a third track).

We both know the traffic levels west of Guelph Junction quite well, and both know that what is there is really all that CP is likely to ever need. Hell, how long had they been talking about the CTC upgrade? I started railfanning the area in 1998 or so, and I remember people talking about it then. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the rumours have been around for even longer than that.

There was a short lived midday service to Erindale, by the way. The Mississauga-Erindale triple track is no longer viable as a passing track, due to longer trains that will now block crossings. The bigger point is, CP needs the second track outside of rush hour - for maintenance, and for operations and local service. That's why the service envelope is peak only, it limits GO to one track, which has been the deal all along. Even running equipment turnbacks at peak - which is a lot more cost effective than addding more layover capacity and buying more trains - would take away the one track that CP has for its use. Which is why that ain't gonna happen.

I don't necessarily agree with all of that. Careful scheduling and judicious use of the crossovers and the additional third track could have allowed for two-way freight flow while maintaing the one-way GO service. Those sections of third track were not envisioned for use by the freights, but rather by the GO trains to allow them to pass each other, or the freights in a pinch. Instead, they are barely used beyond storage on the main where they can.

An old timer who was in the room tells me that when GO first negotiated for the Milton service, CP's list of needed modifications to the line was substantial. GO did a very detailed study which (I am told) demonstrated that they could run the intended service on the line pretty much as it stood, ie with the old unidirectional mbs signalling and jointed rail. It was the top brass at GO and the Province who decided that it wasn't smart to push CP to the wall on that, partly as they foresaw further expansion and partly because they wanted a relationship where they could say, "Look, we did all this for you, now we need you to...." So the study was never presented to CP, and CP got the bidirectional CTC, and GO paid for ribbon rail on one of the two main tracks, and GO helped with other modifications particularly between Lambton and Dixie. (and to Parkdale)

I had the opportunity to chat with one of the planners who had put that report together many, many years ago, and that is exactly what he had told me. He was pretty frustrated that it got shelved, as he felt that it could have led to the use of more lines in the Toronto area and at a lower capital cost than what was eventually done. Of course, once they'd trained the freight railroads that this is what they should expect in terms of improvements to play "nice" with the Government for commuter rail, well, we've now seen what the end result is.

That proved to be a wise move .... it was hard enough to add the triple track from Royal York to Dixie in the 1980's, can you imagine the NIMBY reaction if that were proposed today? And CP gained enough capacity that GO's incremental requests over the years have mostly been accepted. Retired RTC's and Chief Dispatchers have told me that for a decade or two, they went to elaborate lengths to keep a shine on that third track, which really wasn't needed in the beginning. For a time, the third track was the highest-quality, highest-speed, CTC equipped freight car siding on the system. But now it is very much in use. And, really, CP has run a pretty reliable and committed operation - they just say no if their own interests are impacted. CP is not a charity.

- Paul

Actually, all of the improvements in service on the Milton Line over the past 10 years have been predicated, and based on the notion, that GO no longer has to run trains up and down the escarpment west of Milton, freeing up the capacity there. Just like how CP allowed GO to run an additional train out of Hamilton when they started laying over the trains there and not deadheading the trains through the tunnel. Since then, they've stymied GO's attempts to expand the service window or add any service to both of those lines.

You're right, CP isn't a charity. But Metrolinx isn't neither, nor should it be treated as some sort of endless ATM for CP to wring money out of. And maybe this comes back to the oversight issue that Metrolinx has had for years, or to any required changes to the Railway Act, but for far too long CP has not been willing to be an equal partner in the service. And until those changes happen, we're going to be stuck with the status quo - even if we open up our proverbial pocket books to give them what they want.

Dan

 

[robmausser]

When everyone on the train can fit onto a single bus, it's far far cheaper to run the bus.

But yeah, if they believe they can further grow ridership then the short-term cost is probably worth the long-term gain.

Is it really though?

They are just continuing trains that are already in service.

I could see a new train being more expensive than a bus, but not a train that simply has to keep going. That seems rather affordable than having to hire a different crew for the bus, etc.

Its just like why the Lakeshore lines run 12 car trains on weekends and at nights; its more expensive to decouple them etc.

 

[robmausser]

Because people often don't think of taking a bus - they drive to a train, no matter the time consequences. I don't understand it, but it's very common.

This as well, its a social status thing.

Buses are for the poor without cars, trains are luxurious.

Im not saying its true, thats just the publics perception.

 

[rbt]

Is it really though?

They are just continuing trains that are already in service.

Absolutely. Trains require 3 staff (bus has 1), use about 20x the fuel, and have much higher capital wear & tear costs than a bus. If they were doing that trip as a deadhead previously then it wouldn't change; but they weren't.

They're clearly expecting a boost in ridership to compensate for the added costs; particularly given the order to reduce operating costs.

 

[Allandale25]

https://oshawaexpress.ca/durham-looking-at-options-to-go-east/

 

[crs1026]

We both know the traffic levels west of Guelph Junction quite well, and both know that what is there is really all that CP is likely to ever need. Hell, how long had they been talking about the CTC upgrade? I started railfanning the area in 1998 or so, and I remember people talking about it then. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the rumours have been around for even longer than that.

Those weren’t just rumours! However any lower management will put forward more proposals in their budget submissions than the top of the house will approve. Midlevel CP people have told me that those proposals were real, but they got deferred.
I do suspect that the top-level reaction over Galt CTC was always “let’s not do this quite yet, there’s still a chance that GO will pay for it”. Eventually, CP couldn’t wait, but only did what they absolutely had to do. Personally I would spend the money to extend CTC further, and eliminate the hassle of OCS, but I don’t have to face the shareholders.
CP’s business over the past 15 years on the Galt Sub has changed dramatically as shippers changed, traffic was rerouted to Buffalo, etc. I can’t fault CP if they said, “yeah we could do it today, but tomorrow may be different”.

I had the opportunity to chat with one of the planners who had put that report together many, many years ago, and that is exactly what he had told me. He was pretty frustrated that it got shelved, as he felt that it could have led to the use of more lines in the Toronto area and at a lower capital cost than what was eventually done. Of course, once they'd trained the freight railroads that this is what they should expect in terms of improvements to play "nice" with the Government for commuter rail, well, we've now seen what the end result is.

I don’t dispute the truth of some of that frustration, but .... which “other lines” would that be? And what level of service would they have today without the same investment as actually happened?

While it might have been possible to shoehorn some initial GO service levels for less money up front, service growth would have been a constant battle over the years as to whether one more train was feasible and what changes did the freight operations have to make on GO’s behalf. Investment to Burlington, Barrie, Richmond Hill, Lincolnville, and Oshawa has all been necessary to deliver today’s service.

The biggest overpayment was likely on the lines that ML bought outright. Those purchase prices were awfully high. But I’m not sorry that GO built the GO Sub, or the Bayview triple tracking, or the Richmond Hill double tracking, or the Halton Sub triple tracking. Possibly GO screwed up on the Halton, in the sense that there appears to have been a contactual upper limit on CN’s obligation while the existing track is good for more than is running today.

The opposition from CP has never been reported as “we can do that if you pay us more”. It has been “We won’t do that without more track”. Mississauga-Erindale doesn’t even need track....it needs grade separation, which helps CP not a bit.

Actually, all of the improvements in service on the Milton Line over the past 10 years have been predicated, and based on the notion, that GO no longer has to run trains up and down the escarpment west of Milton, freeing up the capacity there. Just like how CP allowed GO to run an additional train out of Hamilton when they started laying over the trains there and not deadheading the trains through the tunnel. Since then, they've stymied GO's attempts to expand the service window or add any service to both of those lines.

Even a minimal hourly off peak service to Milton on one track would need additional passing capacity somewhere west of Streetsville. Interleaving freight into that, to allow 2 way freight capability plus roadswitcher track time, would be tricky. Sure, it would work 80% of the time, but what is the up side for CP of all the flak for the 20% when GO is delayed? As with the Halton, an entire third track just seems prudent before we talk about how to sweat the asset.

Hamilton does seem like CP being overcautious, in the sense that GO doesn’t consume all that much track time through the tunnel, but it is the only place where GO is occupying the only mainline freight track without even a single routing available for freight. That’s a bit like driving without a spare tire....it works fine, until.......

You're right, CP isn't a charity. But Metrolinx isn't neither, nor should it be treated as some sort of endless ATM for CP to wring money out of. And maybe this comes back to the oversight issue that Metrolinx has had for years, or to any required changes to the Railway Act, but for far too long CP has not been willing to be an equal partner in the service. And until those changes happen, we're going to be stuck with the status quo - even if we open up our proverbial pocket books to give them what they want.

If I were Minister of Transport for a day, I would rewrite the rules, sure. But I would not push the pendulum over so far that the railways lose a reasonable comfort margin for freight. We proved that point on CN on the prairies.

- Paul

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

This as well, its a social status thing.

Buses are for the poor without cars, trains are luxurious.

Im not saying its true, thats just the publics perception.

And because of which, most people will drive to the station and then get on the train.

 

[nfitz]

Steve Munro is reporting massive cuts to GO Transit's 2019-20 operating budget, based on an analysis of documents Metrolinx has released.

Presumably there are more service cuts to come soon. More Doug Ford fraud!

Ontario Supports Transit? Metrolinx Subsidy Cut By 30% (Updated)

Updated June 27, 2019 at 6:00 am: Metrolinx has announced that the 38 bus routes, previously cut in the name of “efficiency”, will continue to operate two trips in each of the peak peri…

stevemunro.ca