[cbrown2009]

They could at least do it where double-tracking exists. Kitchener line to Bramalea for example.

In the case of the Kitchener Line, it’s physically possible, with some limitations, but ML/CN still haven’t come to an agreement on running more service on the 300 ft stretch from the junction at Hwy 407 (Halwest?) to Bramalea Go. In the cases of Barrie and Stouffville, full double tracking has to happen. It’s in the works, but unfortunately still a ways off from becoming reality, especially at the seemingly glacial pace at which things are proceeding.

 

[flyinggoats]

In the case of the Kitchener Line, it’s physically possible, with some limitations, but ML/CN still haven’t come to an agreement on running more service on the 300 ft stretch from the junction at Hwy 407 (Halwest?) to Bramalea Go. In the cases of Barrie and Stouffville, full double tracking has to happen. It’s in the works, but unfortunately still a ways off from becoming reality, especially at the seemingly glacial pace at which things are proceeding.

Any counter-peak service would require new trains and more operators. That could be a barrier. I know that a few years ago there was a shortage of staff to drive the trains. Does anyone know if that's still the case?

 

[crs1026]

In the case of the Kitchener Line, it’s physically possible, with some limitations, but ML/CN still haven’t come to an agreement on running more service on the 300 ft stretch from the junction at Hwy 407 (Halwest?) to Bramalea Go. In the cases of Barrie and Stouffville, full double tracking has to happen. It’s in the works, but unfortunately still a ways off from becoming reality, especially at the seemingly glacial pace at which things are proceeding.

The problem is that to run against the direction of a fleet of peak service trains, you need a considerable number of meeting points. Setting aside the considerable discussion we've been having about CN's holding trump on the whole thing, one would have to wait until the entire eastbound fleet reaches Georgetown to send any trains westward from there. And reverse in the afternoon, the off peak train would have to be at Georgetown before the westbounds start arriving. There are currently no meeting points on that stretch. It's amazing how we actually have less 2-way capacity on that line than we had in 1990. A single counter flow train might be doable, CN willing, but not much more than that.

EDIT: With CN agreeing, two way peak service east of Bramalea is doable, certainly.

Any counter-peak service would require new trains and more operators. That could be a barrier. I know that a few years ago there was a shortage of staff to drive the trains. Does anyone know if that's still the case?

I am kicking myself for not putting that question forward to the recent town hall. It takes 2 years to qualify a locomotive operator. 2025 is 7 years away. RER will require almost a 400% increase in crewing (1600 trains to 6000 trains). The cost of stockpiling new loco grads ahead of the need would be huge. Laying track may not be the limiting factor.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The problem is that to run against the direction of a fleet of peak service trains, you need a considerable number of meeting points. Setting aside the considerable discussion we've been having about CN's holding trump on the whole thing, one would have to wait until the entire eastbound fleet reaches Georgetown to send any trains westward from there. And reverse in the afternoon, the off peak train would have to be at Georgetown before the westbounds start arriving. There are currently no meeting points on that stretch. It's amazing how we actually have less 2-way capacity on that line than we had in 1990. A single counter flow train might be doable, CN willing, but not much more than that.



I am kicking myself for not putting that question forward to the recent town hall. It takes 2 years to qualify a locomotive operator. 2025 is 7 years away. RER will require almost a 400% increase in crewing (1600 trains to 6000 trains). The cost of stockpiling new loco grads ahead of the need would be huge. Laying track may not be the limiting factor.

- Paul

True, but this was excuse for Brampton for many years. I think the Libs are dragging their feet because of the Hurontario LRT decision.

 

[TOareaFan]

True, but this was excuse for Brampton for many years. I think the Libs are dragging their feet because of the Hurontario LRT decision.

So they were dragging their heals before the LRT decision? They somehow knew the decision in advance?

to be fair, I was probably at my most "vocal" after the completion of the GTS project about the missed opportunity of adding full, 7 day 2 way, service on the Kitchener line....it was at that time that the discussion around these boards were that a factor was the lack of crews......I don't recall reading about it outside of these boards however and since they have obviously found many crews since that time (as witnessed by the expansion of service on many lines since then) but they have found a use for them elsewhere......the issue (IMO) on Kitchener was never really crew related (as I said at the time, GTS took >5 years to build so if they ever planned to go to full service they had lots of time to recruit and train crews) it was related to the fact that they knew they did not have (and were not close to having) an agreement with CN to get the trains even as far as Bramalea (the busiest station on the line).

 

[Allandale25]

I am kicking myself for not putting that question forward to the recent town hall. It takes 2 years to qualify a locomotive operator. 2025 is 7 years away. RER will require almost a 400% increase in crewing (1600 trains to 6000 trains). The cost of stockpiling new loco grads ahead of the need would be huge. Laying track may not be the limiting factor.

- Paul

Apparently they are having another town hall in February so you'll get another chance.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

FYI, a discussion in the Construction thread about why 2WAD service can occur to Aldershot, but not Bramalea.

 

[smallspy]

In the case of the Kitchener Line, it’s physically possible, with some limitations, but ML/CN still haven’t come to an agreement on running more service on the 300 ft stretch from the junction at Hwy 407 (Halwest?) to Bramalea Go. In the cases of Barrie and Stouffville, full double tracking has to happen. It’s in the works, but unfortunately still a ways off from becoming reality, especially at the seemingly glacial pace at which things are proceeding.

Actually....

While CN is no doubt part of the problem, at least some of the issue is Metrolinx's own stubbornness. They refuse to allow anything else to run on the same tracks as the UPX unless it's an emergency, lest they possibly ruin their 99+% on-time rating. Realistically, it would be very easy to schedule GO trains in between the UPX runs if they wanted to think about it just a bit. The signal system on the Weston Sub can handle very, very tight headways for a heavy-rail corridor.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Actually....

While CN is no doubt part of the problem, at least some of the issue is Metrolinx's own stubbornness. They refuse to allow anything else to run on the same tracks as the UPX unless it's an emergency, lest they possibly ruin their 99+% on-time rating. Realistically, it would be very easy to schedule GO trains in between the UPX runs if they wanted to think about it just a bit. The signal system on the Weston Sub can handle very, very tight headways for a heavy-rail corridor.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Just to be clear, that would still only get any additional trains to Malton...right?

 

[cbrown2009]

Just to be clear, that would still only get any additional trains to Malton...right?

As of today, yes. I spoke of limitations earlier, those being the lack of stops east of Malton.
Right now, the last two eastbound midday trains on Kitchener Line (Mount Pleasant to Union) run Express to Union east of Malton. They do slot in just ahead of UPX trains headed in the same direction, pretty much arriving at the jump off point to the airport at about the same time. At that point the Go trains take the lead and run straight down. This schedule could persist east of Bramalea but westbound rush hour trains fill the tracks from Bramalea westward as well as from Union to the airport junction.
Laying another track from USRC up to west of Malton would, of course, alleviate this and allow the full stop service to the 3 stops within Toronto (also need another platform at Weston and a decision on what happens at Etobicoke North, Mount Dennis stop & connection to the X-town notwithstanding.)

Right now that 4th Platform at Bramalea is still closed and not ready for use (after 2 years of work btw), which is totally on Go/ML. Supposedly they’ve downed tools in light of a fuller rethinking of Bramalea Go as a whole (please correct me if I’m wrong) but I’d rather see them wrap that work up and reopen the platform, then see about convincing CN to at least let them use it in the interim somehow.

 

[TOareaFan]

but I’d rather see them wrap that work up and reopen the platform, then see about convincing CN to at least let them use it in the interim somehow.

I think you have the order reversed.

 

[cbrown2009]

I think you have the order reversed.

Lol! You mean convince CN, then finish the work after?

 

[TOareaFan]

Lol! You mean convince CN, then finish the work after?

yeah....if you can never use it...why spend money on it? Kinda the way I feel about the tunnel under the 401....if that 117MM is not gonna increase the capacity of the corridor meaningfully because of what is west of it....why spend the money.

 

[cbrown2009]

yeah....if you can never use it...why spend money on it? Kinda the way I feel about the tunnel under the 401....if that 117MM is not gonna increase the capacity of the corridor meaningfully because of what is west of it....why spend the money.

I can see your point. But I can see their optimism here that eventually the service will come through, even if the word is currently “stand pat” for another 7-8 years until the bypass gets worked out. Which really sucks for right now...

 

[TOareaFan]

I can see your point. But I can see their optimism here that eventually the service will come through, even if the word is currently “stand pat” for another 7-8 years until the bypass gets worked out. Which really sucks for right now...

There is no reason that the tunnel and they bypass and the work on that platform at Bramalea could not all happen at the same time....if and when the bypass goes ahead.

I am pretty sure that when they wrote the cheque for the track west of Georgetown in this corridor they were optimistic....pretty sure when they spent the $1.3B on the GTS they were optimistic....but none of them led to where they want/need to go....how many cheques do we write in this corridor before someone says "no more cheques until we know we are gonna get full value for them".