[Krypto98]

It would be tricky.

I'm honestly not sure that there is a long enough stretch of flat area to allow for a set of high speed (#20) crossovers between the point at which the grade begins for the Weston Sub underpass and the north ends of the platforms at Bloor. Slower-speed crossovers could be used sure, but then you get into the resultant reduction of capacity and increase in time required to traverse them.

And then there's the whole issue of capacity. The Weston Sub currently has a humongous amount of built-in capacity sure, way more than is currently being used. But is there enough capacity to operate 15 minute UPX service _AND_ 15 minute Kitchener Line service _AND_ Milton Line trains _AND_ whatever form Smartrack ends up taking _AND_ any additional VIA trains that they want to run up that way? It really would be cutting things extremely fine.


Prior to the first lockdown, GO was already running an approximately 10 minute service on the Milton Line during the morning rush hour.

How much better service would you envision out there with RER?

Dan

Isn't the speed limit through the curve from the Weston Sub to Galt sub at 30 mph? There is already a Crossover there but it's for track 6 to track 5. The only viable option I see is to put a side platform on the west end of track 5. However I don't think metrolinx thinks it's worth the cost and I think they probably want to double track the milton line track through bloor station, making it 6 tracks

 

[smallspy]

Isn't the speed limit through the curve from the Weston Sub to Galt sub at 30 mph? There is already a Crossover there but it's for track 6 to track 5. The only viable option I see is to put a side platform on the west end of track 5. However I don't think metrolinx thinks it's worth the cost and I think they probably want to double track the milton line track through bloor station, making it 6 tracksView attachment 357816

There are two curves on the connection to the CP trackage - I don't have track maps for them, but I seem to recall that the inner curve is good for 20mph, while the outer is allowed 45 or 50mph. Yes, they currently combine back into one track around the Wallace pedestrian bridge.

The long-term goals for the GO-owned stretch of that track are to have it 2 tracks all the way down from The Junction to Strachan/USRC. This would allow for the largest amount of flexibility in scheduling and hopefully help prevent delays on the CP-owned track for when the time comes to start runnning bidirectionally. And doing so would preclude the installation of a platform at Bloor unless a not-inconsequential amount of land is purchased on the west side of the corridor.

Dan

 

[Garuda]

Makes sense. Wonder actually if they can get away with having a yard in Stratford instead of Baden. And maybe Goderich excursion train. Jk…. Unless

With Stratford being A very important railway hub and a mayor who’s eager for more service and plenty of land I see the town pushing hard to build a yard there.

 

[ShonTron]

Stratford has a large underused freight yard from the time it was a busy divisional point for trains to Owen Sound, Toronto, London, Southampton, Durham, Paris, Goderich, and Kincardine, so yes, the space is there. GEXR still uses it for its trains to Goderich and to Exeter.

It makes more sense in many ways than a greenfield site at Baden, but I doubt Metrolinx would commit to it until the end of the pilot period.

 

[EnviroTO]

If they really wanted a Milton platform at Bloor GO they could rebuild the westernmost rail bridge over Bloor to have space between track 5 & future track 6 so an island platform could be built directly south of Bloor with an overhead connection.

However, for the sake of maximum connectivity and improved travel times I don't think the Milton line should stop at Bloor but rather one station should be built south of where Barrie line joins the corridor at Lansdowne (Parkdale GO) where all lines would stop. This would allow transfer to the Kitchener line if you want to go to Weston or Liberty Village, or the Barrie line to go to Rutherford or Spadina. If someone on the Milton line wanted to get into Line 2 they could have done that one stop earlier at Kipling.

 

[tsm1072]

If they really wanted a Milton platform at Bloor GO they could rebuild the westernmost rail bridge over Bloor to have space between track 5 & future track 6 so an island platform could be built directly south of Bloor with an overhead connection.

However, for the sake of maximum connectivity and improved travel times I don't think the Milton line should stop at Bloor but rather one station should be built south of where Barrie line joins the corridor at Lansdowne (Parkdale GO) where all lines would stop. This would allow transfer to the Kitchener line if you want to go to Weston or Liberty Village, or the Barrie line to go to Rutherford or Spadina. If someone on the Milton line wanted to get into Line 2 they could have done that one stop earlier at Kipling.

Isn't Liberty Village (King West) Station going to serve that purpose? Liberty village also provides a destination and more transfers. I can't really see a justification for an intermediate stop between Bloor and Liberty Village.

 

[EnviroTO]

Isn't Liberty Village (King West) Station going to serve that purpose? Liberty village also provides a destination and more transfers. I can't really see a justification for an intermediate stop between Bloor and Liberty Village.

There isn't space in the corridor to serve all the lines at Liberty Village where they will be able to serve 4 of 8 tracks at most. This means that Bloor, Liberty Village, and Spadina can't provide an effective transfer point between Milton, Kitchener, Bolton, and Barrie services and some trips will require going all the way to Union and turning back. Alternatively they need to widen the corridor by expropriating parking space behind 15-47 Sudbury St (maybe put in a level of parking garage), and knock down 99 Sudbury, and put the sound barrier wall right up against the sidewalk west of there.

 

[Bordercollie]

Stratford has a large underused freight yard from the time it was a busy divisional point for trains to Owen Sound, Toronto, London, Southampton, Durham, Paris, Goderich, and Kincardine, so yes, the space is there. GEXR still uses it for its trains to Goderich and to Exeter.

It makes more sense in many ways than a greenfield site at Baden, but I doubt Metrolinx would commit to it until the end of the pilot period.

They could extend the yard track past the crossing to allow it to be used as a passing tracks to allow trains and o pass each other and use the single platform. This way they can increase frequency on the line with minimal investment.

 

[nfitz]

Prior to the first lockdown, GO was already running an approximately 10 minute service on the Milton Line during the morning rush hour.

How much better service would you envision out there with RER?

Shoulder, counter-peak, mid-day, evening, and weekends.

If the recent funding promise wasn't about those, I'm confused what it's for. I don't know how you can do that (other than perhaps some infrequent mid-day/weekend/evening trains) without adding 2 tracks.

Some peak runs to Galt wouldn't hurt either. Which might be easier to negotiate, if GO get's off the Milton to Junction track completely.

 

[Urban Sky]

That was the pre-election promise. It's also been in the RTP for years - though probably in the 25-year timeframe (which never seems to get any closer in each edition!)

I've never heard it related to the missing link - that seems to be one of the Urban Toronto fantasy ideas, for the CP line.

The ROW is quite wide. They just need more tracks. CP doesn't need more than two.

Shoulder, counter-peak, mid-day, evening, and weekends.

If the recent funding promise wasn't about those, I'm confused what it's for. I don't know how you can do that (other than perhaps some infrequent mid-day/weekend/evening trains) without adding 2 tracks.

Some peak runs to Galt wouldn't hurt either. Which might be easier to negotiate, if GO get's off the Milton to Junction track completely.

Your second post describes what I meant in a much less clumsy way as mine did: providing useful service (i.e. AD2D service at RER-style frequencies) will require a dedicated infrastructure which is basically independent from CP's transcontinental freight network and the "Missing Link" is indicative of the massive scale of investment which might be required to provide that pre-requisite...

 

[nfitz]

...will require a dedicated infrastructure which is basically independent from CP's transcontinental freight network and the "Missing Link" is indicative of the massive scale of investment which might be required to provide that pre-requisite...

If there's room for 2 more tracks from Milton to The Junction (and I thought there is, but I haven't checked - though it certainly seems very wide when I've crossed it), then why is the missing link a factor?

 

[Urban Sky]

If there's room for 2 more tracks from Milton to The Junction (and I thought there is, but I haven't checked - though it certainly seems very wide when I've crossed it), then why is the missing link a factor?

The "Missing Link" is an (admittedly costly) solution which would solve the issue of conflicts between GO's RER and CP's transcontinental freight operations, but I didn't intend to claim it's the only possible solution...

 

[crs1026]

If there's room for 2 more tracks from Milton to The Junction (and I thought there is, but I haven't checked - though it certainly seems very wide when I've crossed it), then why is the missing link a factor?

Including CP in the Missing Link has a lot of intuitive sense, so long as one doesn't live in York-Markham.... do we really want freight rolling through the center of the city? Why not reduce the adverse impacts/risks of freight in densely populated urban areas from two corridors to one?

What we may never know is what the railways' take on it was.... just what price point would have created interest?

I suspect the price point was far higher than the Province could afford. And the railways' long term capacity needs may well exceed what one corridor can deliver.

The cost of adding two tracks (for 2WAD Milton GO) along the Galt Sub versus adding two tracks for CP further north and repurposing the existing CP tracks as GO is probably not that central to the railways' actual asking price, and therefore not that material to the discussion. It's simply against the railways' institutional framework. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but it means a tangled conversation that will take longer and has more implications when all the Province was hoping for was a fast, easy way to acquire the Milton line to get GO service upgraded. There is no such silver bullet.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

You are suggesting that adding 2 more tracks to part of the Milton line, would be tougher to negotiate, than building an entire new mainline (much of it on CN land), all the way from Milton to neat Pickering?

I'd think the opposite.

 

[Urban Sky]

You are suggesting that adding 2 more tracks to part of the Milton line, would be tougher to negotiate, than building an entire new mainline (much of it on CN land), all the way from Milton to neat Pickering?

I'd think the opposite.

You are forgetting about the costs of accommodating AD2D RER service with CN's longhaul freights still on CN's Halton Sub. The Missing Link would fix the issues of two GO Corridors including HFR/HSR to London and beyond...