[smallspy]

do you or does anyone else know what the theoretically maximum number of GO trains and/or commuters Union station could handle per hour if fully optimized?

that's with wider platforms, through running, a new signal system and a new fleet for GO etc...

I've read a couple of different yet conflicting reports on this topic, so if someone more knowledgable than me could chime in I would appreciated it.

It's.......complicated.

For commuters, that would be dependent on things like number of stairwells, speeds and distances, human flow patterns, etc. There are people far more qualified than I who hang out here who can answer this.

For the tracks - as they currently sit - this is actually a fairly easy equation. With all of the potential improvements that will allow double-berthing and the like, the math works like this:
- Running through the station - 6 trains per hour per track in one direction.
- Turning back in each direction - 8 trains per hour per track (4 trains per hour in each direction).

There are going to be 15 tracks available at Union Station (from what I can discern of the latest plans). If 10 are allocated to through-running and 5 are used for turning back, that would mean a throughput of 100 trains per hour. And obviously that number can change depending on how the tracks are allocated. For instance, swapping those allocations around - 10 for turning back, 5 for through-running - gives us 140 trains per hour.

Wider platforms will help with the passenger circulation, but will do nothing to increase the number of trains that any given track can hold.

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

It's.......complicated.

For commuters, that would be dependent on things like number of stairwells, speeds and distances, human flow patterns, etc. There are people far more qualified than I who hang out here who can answer this.

For the tracks - as they currently sit - this is actually a fairly easy equation. With all of the potential improvements that will allow double-berthing and the like, the math works like this:
- Running through the station - 6 trains per hour per track in one direction.
- Turning back in each direction - 8 trains per hour per track (4 trains per hour in each direction).

There are going to be 15 tracks available at Union Station (from what I can discern of the latest plans). If 10 are allocated to through-running and 5 are used for turning back, that would mean a throughput of 100 trains per hour. And obviously that number can change depending on how the tracks are allocated. For instance, swapping those allocations around - 10 for turning back, 5 for through-running - gives us 140 trains per hour.

Wider platforms will help with the passenger circulation, but will do nothing to increase the number of trains that any given track can hold.

Dan

Question, Dan.........

Six trains per hour, through-running would seem to imply that a train requires a 10M window for approach, occupancy/dwell and departure.

Can we not do better than that? That seems like a lot of needless dwell time. Not my field, so I'm genuinely just asking, because it intuitively seems low to me.

 

[smallspy]

Question, Dan.........

Six trains per hour, through-running would seem to imply that a train requires a 10M window for approach, occupancy/dwell and departure.

Can we not do better than that? That seems like a lot of needless dwell time. Not my field, so I'm genuinely just asking, because it intuitively seems low to me.

It's not the dwell time that's the issue - I think that it's only projected to be something like 90 seconds or 2 minutes. The platforms are so long that the time occupied by each train is a very, very substantial portion of the 10 minutes.

Dan

 

[generalcanada]

It's not the dwell time that's the issue - I think that it's only projected to be something like 90 seconds or 2 minutes. The platforms are so long that the time occupied by each train is a very, very substantial portion of the 10 minutes.

Dan

isnt a part of USEP to allow trains to run at 80kph?

 

[Deadpool X]

How many platforms will there be in Union after this remodelling? I read 10 a few years ago. Is it still the same?

 

[crs1026]

isnt a part of USEP to allow trains to run at 80kph?

Once a train reaches the existing USRC ladder tracks, with the heritage signals, they must slow considerably below 80 kph..

If the tracks are reconfigured to more of a multiple-through-route configuration, speeds may rise considerably, but some margin of safety is needed in braking distances. Overshooting the platform has a whole different implication at Union. So trains may never roar into the trainshed the way they do out on the main line.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

isnt a part of USEP to allow trains to run at 80kph?

The ultimate plan once everything is done - and keep in mind that much of the trackwork is already done, we're now just waiting on the signalling - is to have trains travel at 60mph (96km/h) on the sections of the USRC from the outer ends to the ladders, 45mph (72km/h) through the ladders if going straight or 25mph (40km/h) if diverging, and 10mph (16km/h) while under the trainshed.

It's this last speed that is the biggest factor in the amount of time required to plan for, and there really isn't much of a fix for it, unfortunately. That's why double-berthing has been pushed as the best way to increase throughput and capacity.

Dan

 

[innsertnamehere]

the new south platform won't have the 10mph limit, correct? i.e. LSW and LSE trains, which IIRC are supposed to use the south platform, will fly right in to the platform like it's a regular station on the mainline. The problem is the other lines using the platforms under the old shed... right?

 

[generalcanada]

The ultimate plan once everything is done - and keep in mind that much of the trackwork is already done, we're now just waiting on the signalling - is to have trains travel at 60mph (96km/h) on the sections of the USRC from the outer ends to the ladders, 45mph (72km/h) through the ladders if going straight or 25mph (40km/h) if diverging, and 10mph (16km/h) while under the trainshed.

It's this last speed that is the biggest factor in the amount of time required to plan for, and there really isn't much of a fix for it, unfortunately. That's why double-berthing has been pushed as the best way to increase throughput and capacity.

Dan

oh jeez the crawl through the platforms stays? everything i heard publicly is that its going to "allow" speeds up to 70kph
even here on infrastructure ontario https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Union-Station-Enhancement-Project/

>Construction of two new tracks designed to allow for future passenger train speed up to 45mph, with associated signal works
is this just misleading then?

 

[T3G]

oh jeez the crawl through the platforms stays?

This seems wise. The platforms at Union are far too narrow to be able to justify a train going through at speed, especially given how crowded it gets at rush hour.

 

[generalcanada]

This seems wise. The platforms at Union are far too narrow to be able to justify a train going through at speed, especially given how crowded it gets at rush hour.

then again with the new huge platforms that might change

 

[Richard White]

This seems wise. The platforms at Union are far too narrow to be able to justify a train going through at speed, especially given how crowded it gets at rush hour.

I concur. I can see someone getting clipped by a train at speed.

 

[smallspy]

the new south platform won't have the 10mph limit, correct? i.e. LSW and LSE trains, which IIRC are supposed to use the south platform, will fly right in to the platform like it's a regular station on the mainline. The problem is the other lines using the platforms under the old shed... right?

I have no clue. The old platforms 25 to 28 maintained the same speed limit as the tracks under the trainshed, and I highly doubt that their geometry once complete will permit much above 25-ish mph.

oh jeez the crawl through the platforms stays? everything i heard publicly is that its going to "allow" speeds up to 70kph
even here on infrastructure ontario https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Union-Station-Enhancement-Project/

>Construction of two new tracks designed to allow for future passenger train speed up to 45mph, with associated signal works
is this just misleading then?

This is news to me....maybe it will be true? I've not seen the drawings for this part of the construction, so I don't know what they have planned here, but I honestly can't see track speeds (or geometry) through those platforms of 45mph being plausible. Again, 45mph is planned through the ladders once the new signalling system is fully activated, so that specific speed is and has long been planned for.

It should be noted that generally the crews aim to hit the end of the end of the 1200 foot long platforms at about 40mph on the mainline, and the tail end usually clears the platform with the train doing 32-ish mph, if you want to get an idea of the speeds are like at platforms.

Dan

 

[superelevation]

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View attachment 426777

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This is the type of study that should make people skeptical of our studies - this is nuts! - platforms maxxing out at 8 tph?!?!?!?! Assuming we rebuild the platforms to reasonable width you can easily do >10 tph per direction per track, get single level trains with more doors and you can go much higher, there is no good reason we can't get to 20 tph per track with changes to the platform design. There is not really a fundamental difference between what is possible from Subway to Regional rail with the right trains and signalling.

Once a train reaches the existing USRC ladder tracks, with the heritage signals, they must slow considerably below 80 kph..

If the tracks are reconfigured to more of a multiple-through-route configuration, speeds may rise considerably, but some margin of safety is needed in braking distances. Overshooting the platform has a whole different implication at Union. So trains may never roar into the trainshed the way they do out on the main line.

- Paul

That is true, but will likely change with electrification and higher performance trains.

The ultimate plan once everything is done - and keep in mind that much of the trackwork is already done, we're now just waiting on the signalling - is to have trains travel at 60mph (96km/h) on the sections of the USRC from the outer ends to the ladders, 45mph (72km/h) through the ladders if going straight or 25mph (40km/h) if diverging, and 10mph (16km/h) while under the trainshed.

It's this last speed that is the biggest factor in the amount of time required to plan for, and there really isn't much of a fix for it, unfortunately. That's why double-berthing has been pushed as the best way to increase throughput and capacity.

Dan

This seems wise. The platforms at Union are far too narrow to be able to justify a train going through at speed, especially given how crowded it gets at rush hour.

But plans are already underway to widen them, theres no reason we can't get quite a bit faster than today, there are plenty of places they go fast in Europe with curvy platforms etc.

 

[T3G]

But plans are already underway to widen them, theres no reason we can't get quite a bit faster than today, there are plenty of places they go fast in Europe with curvy platforms etc.

Those plans will take time to realize, particularly if they are going to do the whole station. As at right now, no matter the signal system in place, running trains at speed in the trainshed seems pointlessly dangerous to me.