One Nut Kruk
Banned
Much of what is considered 'scientific proof' is largely assumptions that we accept as facts (man-made global warming, for example). Science is not a perfect method for determining truth. Many things cannot be proved but we don't question them; watch the following video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQL2YDY_LiM John Lennox's 'Aunt Matilda's Cake' illustration further demonstrates the limitations of science: http://abspoel.blogspot.ca/2008/03/aunt-matildas-cake.html
No one "should" believe in God, that is a personal choice based on one's research. There are many reasons to believe what is written in the bible is true, eg. eye witness accounts from those who wrote it. They were persecuted and martyred, but never changed their story -- literary consistency (written over 1500 years by 40 writers), prophetic consistency, corroborating accounts, global influence, etc.). There will always be aspects about life/God that we'll never understand (while we're here on earth). I understand where you're coming from. Why should we be expected to fully comprehend someone as perplexing a God? We barely even understand our own emotions and purposes in life.
I think God understands that we question Him out of confusion, anger, sadness, etc.; we're not supposed to test Him, but we all have. No one can answer as to why some people die as infants, or suffer a great deal of pain. Even those who devote their life to serving God can succumb to suffering; I've personally witnessed this. It's extremely frustrating trying to figure out why such things occur, but as the priest in your anecdote said, we wouldn't understand. That may sound like a copout, but is most likely true. We know very little about God what plan He has for us all. Perhaps good people who suffer and die young have a purpose in heaven and will enjoy eternity in pure joy -- while some bad people who get away with (at least in their earthly presence) murder, adultery, physical/sexual, emotional abuse, etc. are awaiting their punishment after death? I don't think God expects us to just believe in Him because our parents may have told us to. He wants us to use our ability to assess information and come to our own conclusions. There will never be tangible proof of God's existence. Why He won't make Himself physically known to us is anyone's guess. This is a very complicated subject to talk about, as none of us have all the answers.
Are we not prone to sin? I think it's obvious that we're naturally drawn to it. We've all lost our tempers and shouted at others; that is a sin. We've hurt others physically, emotionally. We've all fantasized about sleeping with someone else's husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, etc...I don't know how you can argue that a sinful world doesn't exist.
How is my admitting to not understanding God's actions, "giving up"? What explanations am I not seeking that make sense? Do things happen for a reason, I do not know. You haven't really offered an alternative.
Why does God need to justify Himself to anyone? What you consider "just" isn't necessarily what is just in the eyes of God. If He exists and created you, then why must He satisfy your bewilderment? You think He owes you an explanation because as a human you're prone to having your feelings hurt. You, like everyone else, wants to know why life is unfair, in our eyes. This goes back to my original statement, "why must God meet our expectations of what it right and fair?" He doesn't need to explain Himself to us, as He is the truth. Why should His order be contingent on our sensitivities? It is awfully arrogant to demand answers from the one who gave you life (in my opinion). In your view, God doesn't exist or is unjust because bad people get away with their behaviour, while good people are hurting. Your argument is similar to those who want to take away gun ownership rights from law abiding citizens (which basically boils down to, 'If you don't want to ban guns, then you don't care about the innocent children that died at Sandy Hook.') Why fixate so much on the suffering and pain in the world, when there is so much beauty to enjoy? You can either be empowered by suffering, or you can allow it to consume you. I don't mean to come across as insulting, but you and all other atheists I've debated seem to have a very childish purview, a la, 'that's not fair, I'm telling!' You're obviously a very articulate guy, but you're arguments hinge too much on emotionalism. Life can really suck sometimes; get over it. There are no easy explanations for why things are the way they are. Maybe we'll better understand once we die?
"no, I am not prepared to accept random, unaccountable suffering that passeth understanding in this life just to get to another supposed existence (again, not proven!)" How would one prove that heaven and hell exist? They are beyond the realm of the known universe. We barely even understand our oceans, and anything beyond our own galaxy. How can we even prove the existence of God with our limited methods? Mankind is very narcissistic to think that we can explain everything, especially the greatest mystery known to us. Just because we can't say with absolutely certainty that God is real, that doesn't mean He has to be a man-made figure. That is too simple of an answer.
Is that just an issue for believers? You've never called out to God in a time of grief, uncertainty, fear, desperately hoping that there might be truth to His existence and that He would grant you a wish? I'm sure that even the strongest of atheists have tried to make contact with God at some point. Perhaps their lack of faith is partially due to Him not answering their prayers, i.e. if God loved me, He would help me?
Anyway, no responses are necessary. You can just ponder what I have written. This thread should stick to Rob Ford related issues.
Last edited:
