urbandreamer
recession proof
Dumbest idea ever. It could work in those small beach communities in cottage country, where demand is there but not overwhelming.
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- Thread starter ShonTron
- Start date
Kiwi
Active Member
Would be nice to keep all the HSR Mountain buses on the Mountain (have the endpoint at Sam Lawrence Park) and have them transfer on a gondola to the downtown HSR terminal.
The Mad Navigator
Banned
Sounds too "novelty" for my liking.
Justin10000
Banned
I can see Gondolas working in Hamilton. It would give travellers a new option to travel to the mountain from the GO station.
muller877
Senior Member
Reopening this thread, I was recently on the gondola's in London (crossing the Thames) and NYC.
I was very suprised at how nice the ride was. I am used to riding in gondola's for skiing/tourism but was my first time in a city. London is mainly a tourist line and does not have that many commuters. NYC's is used by commuters.
Gondola's are very good at moving people through difficult topography or from one point to another (2 mid-point stops at a maximum). This means that it can be used to replace a ferry, an express bus or a new route but is very difficult to replace a pre-existing bus route (stops would have to be eliminated).
The cost for a new model is around $20M / km (10-25 based on number of stops, poles, capacity, etc). The travel time is around 4 min / km
As such, I would propose that they can be used for:
1. Toronto Island (Cherry streetcar - Wards Island (via the gap) - Centre Island). 4km, $80M. Replaces all ferry service. Should have operating cost savings compared to ferries, more tourists to the island, etc. This of course has been talked about elsewhere.
2. Oakville GO (Sheridan via Trafalger to Oakville GO, via 16 mile creek valley to downtown Oakville). 3.7km, $75M. Allows for students to get to Sheridan, GO can create a secondary parking facility at Sheridan, kiss and ride at Sheridan and downtown Oakville, more shoppers downtown Oakville, etc.
3. Kipling - Sherway - Dixie GO - Cooksville GO (and the Hurontario LRT). 9.5 km, $190M. A temporary Gondola until the subway is extended to the Hurontario LRT. Power station is at the Cooksville GO so does not have to move as the gondola is shortened if the subway goes to Sherway. Also secondary way to get to GO station if you miss that last train!
4. Others? Again, should not be used to replace a bus (no frequent stops)
Benefits:
- 1-2 years after EA to build if using proven technology (quick wins within 1 election cycle)
- low cost and low disruption during construction
- proven technology (not in Toronto but throughout the world)
- does not reduce the lanes of traffic
- electric
- expandable depending on technology chosen
- subsequently if a higher order transit is build, can be reused (moved to different part of the city)
- can be a work of art if desired
I was very suprised at how nice the ride was. I am used to riding in gondola's for skiing/tourism but was my first time in a city. London is mainly a tourist line and does not have that many commuters. NYC's is used by commuters.
Gondola's are very good at moving people through difficult topography or from one point to another (2 mid-point stops at a maximum). This means that it can be used to replace a ferry, an express bus or a new route but is very difficult to replace a pre-existing bus route (stops would have to be eliminated).
The cost for a new model is around $20M / km (10-25 based on number of stops, poles, capacity, etc). The travel time is around 4 min / km
As such, I would propose that they can be used for:
1. Toronto Island (Cherry streetcar - Wards Island (via the gap) - Centre Island). 4km, $80M. Replaces all ferry service. Should have operating cost savings compared to ferries, more tourists to the island, etc. This of course has been talked about elsewhere.
2. Oakville GO (Sheridan via Trafalger to Oakville GO, via 16 mile creek valley to downtown Oakville). 3.7km, $75M. Allows for students to get to Sheridan, GO can create a secondary parking facility at Sheridan, kiss and ride at Sheridan and downtown Oakville, more shoppers downtown Oakville, etc.
3. Kipling - Sherway - Dixie GO - Cooksville GO (and the Hurontario LRT). 9.5 km, $190M. A temporary Gondola until the subway is extended to the Hurontario LRT. Power station is at the Cooksville GO so does not have to move as the gondola is shortened if the subway goes to Sherway. Also secondary way to get to GO station if you miss that last train!
4. Others? Again, should not be used to replace a bus (no frequent stops)
Benefits:
- 1-2 years after EA to build if using proven technology (quick wins within 1 election cycle)
- low cost and low disruption during construction
- proven technology (not in Toronto but throughout the world)
- does not reduce the lanes of traffic
- electric
- expandable depending on technology chosen
- subsequently if a higher order transit is build, can be reused (moved to different part of the city)
- can be a work of art if desired
dunkalunk
Senior Member
I can see this type of thing being ideal to connect Sherway Gardens and Long Branch GO station along Etobicoke Creek, provided that it can be run at a decent speed.
That would work. Certainly this seems most applicable to connecting one node with another (or a couple nodes in a row) through a route that a fixed-link transit system would be unable to do (or would be unpractical to do). It's certainly easier to run a gondola through or across a river valley than it is to run an LRT.
The most practical locations in the GTHA for this I think are:
1) Waterdown to Aldershot GO: Because of the escarpment between Waterdown and Aldershot, widening roads or putting any kind of fixed-link transit up that is challenging. But running a gondola from a "Waterdown Centre" (even if it's just a massive park n ride and bus loop) to Aldershot I think would do well.
2) Kipling-Sherway-Long Branch: For the reasons already described above.
3) Toronto Islands: Replacing the ferries, again for the reasons described above.
4) Cooksville GO to Square One: I know there's going to be an LRT running that route, but I think an express route directly between the GO station and the Sq1 Transit Terminal would really help, especially if the Milton line ever gets GO REX level service.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I think getting over to Toronto Islands/Airport is a natural and logical choice.
I don't think there are many other applications for it in Toronto except maybe a connection to the Toronto Zoo from, for example, UT Scar or the Malvern/Morningstar area.Perhaps a connection from the MiWay transit terminus at Eglington where there could be a connection to Pearson but I'm not sure if the Pearson People Mover will be extended to there. Maybe downtown to The X but that could be incorporated into the Island service.
Gondolas have a very niche application suchas "last mile" trips or over very hilly terrain or waterways neither of which are issues in Toronto except the Islands. When it comes to those things even a PRT system maybe preferable as they are cheap to build but have far higher speeds.
I don't think there are many other applications for it in Toronto except maybe a connection to the Toronto Zoo from, for example, UT Scar or the Malvern/Morningstar area.Perhaps a connection from the MiWay transit terminus at Eglington where there could be a connection to Pearson but I'm not sure if the Pearson People Mover will be extended to there. Maybe downtown to The X but that could be incorporated into the Island service.
Gondolas have a very niche application suchas "last mile" trips or over very hilly terrain or waterways neither of which are issues in Toronto except the Islands. When it comes to those things even a PRT system maybe preferable as they are cheap to build but have far higher speeds.
dowlingm
Senior Member
I would agree with a Toronto Islands link. If the tunnel hadn't been built it might have worked between YTZ and the ferry terminal since it would be above the height that would interfere with channel traffic, but one from Cherry Beach to Wards Island would take pressure off the city centre ferries while providing terrific skyline views. A ferris wheel (hi Doug Ford!) that takes you somewhere other than up and down 
The other place I thought of one (and it's one that private sponsors might get behind similar to London's "Emirates Air Line") would be GO Exhibition-Exhibition Place-Ontario Place (assuming the latter ever gets a plan of some kind)
The other place I thought of one (and it's one that private sponsors might get behind similar to London's "Emirates Air Line") would be GO Exhibition-Exhibition Place-Ontario Place (assuming the latter ever gets a plan of some kind)
Allandale25
Senior Member
Jimvee
New Member
I proposed this as the solution to move people from Exhibition Station to Ontario Place, will allow for people to get to Ontario Place without walking through or around the Ex.
whydidimakethis
Active Member
Gondolas are very slow and low capacity. Better to build a BRT in that corridor, building upon the already very successful York University Busway. Gondolas are best kept for short connecting hops over areas challenging to navigate with a vehicle or as a pedestrian, in no way a citywide system. Enjoy your Don Valley view at 10km/h! Oh wait- it's already like that...
Sunnyside
Active Member
I feel there are a small handful of locations where gondolas work, but only for scaling steep grades- connecting Exhibition to Ontario Place could be done with something else that has higher capacity. It isn’t meant to be a tourist attraction after all…
With that, my only two options I see as viable are:
1. Connecting Line 2 to RH GO in some far-off future where RH GO runs often enough to make it worth it.
2. Hamilton, where it can help ease the urban/suburban divide and make local transit, GO connections, active transport and yes, tourism, more viable on the mountain. Concession st, Mohawk College and Sam Lawrence Park are very urban destinations close to the escarpment- they would be far more appealing for daytrippers or commuters to check out if it was easier to access them. Do note there were a variety of inclines performing this function a century ago, so it’s the most proven use case IMO.
With that, my only two options I see as viable are:
1. Connecting Line 2 to RH GO in some far-off future where RH GO runs often enough to make it worth it.
2. Hamilton, where it can help ease the urban/suburban divide and make local transit, GO connections, active transport and yes, tourism, more viable on the mountain. Concession st, Mohawk College and Sam Lawrence Park are very urban destinations close to the escarpment- they would be far more appealing for daytrippers or commuters to check out if it was easier to access them. Do note there were a variety of inclines performing this function a century ago, so it’s the most proven use case IMO.
Bureaucromancer
Active Member
On that Hamilton note bear in mind just how much the ICTS plan was a modern day incarnation of the incline's functionality. Even setting that aside, I'd be inclined to suggest that the geography is much more suited to an incline than gondola.
As far as what I think might be sensible, the Brickworks line wasn't a terrible idea if the numbers can be made to work without putting so much... stuff... on the site as to ruin it, and something in the Niagara Gorge could be spectacular.
Sunnyside
Active Member
Hamilton could always be a place where newer technologies or gadgetbahns can be made to work. The geography presents lots of challenges for conventional rail that will always need to be solved, so there is an appeal to look beyond (even if we solved these problems 100 years ago just to tear them out). I recall RMTransit doing a video on modern inclines/incline adjacent tech, and some of them seem to be very flexible in terms of being used for actual RT corridors.
Looking globally, Chongqing is a place where geography influenced the uptake of a monorail system over just conventional metro. ICTS would have possibly worked out better than in Scarborough on the mountain for this reason (and it’s alignment), and certainly would be easier than LRT. Albeit these solutions are a lot more expensive (and risky) than a gondola of course haha.
Niagara would be a place for these to work as well. Really anywhere along the escarpment or various valleys across the GTA is on the table. I think we need to see the value in building them however; municipalities could do it themselves as they are cheap, but I don’t think they really care too much. Hamilton neighborhoods have asked for gondolas at consultations about LRT community benefits, so I think there is demand. Sometimes entities just don’t know the utility till they see a working (local) example.