[CDL.TO]

If Miller really wanted to get rid of the vast majority of gun crime in Toronto he needs to target those that use the guns in crimes. We already know who they are, young black males in broken, single parent, fatherless homes, born into cycles of poverty and public housing. If we deduct every gun murder by this specific group over the last five years, I feel that 80% of the 80-odd murders that happen each year in Toronto wouldn't happen at all. If we had the gumption to provide stats on the demographics of murderers, I'd guarantee it.

So, there it is Miller. You want to stop gun crime in Toronto, then you've got to stop this specific population group from causing the crime. You can throw all the usual feel-good social programs, community supports, celebrity-sponsored basketball courts, mentor programs, public funds, scholarships and the like at the problem, but what you are not doing is putting the fear into these fellows.

Okay, Beez. You're identified a demographic. What exactly do you suggest Miller do? How does one put fear into a specific segment of a specific demographic?

 

[ShonTron]

I'm counting on being left behind. Better parties.

Ha!

Even if I believed in that crock, I wouldn't be sure I'd want to live in a place where only "wholesome" evangelical Christians were permitted entry. It'd be worse than Utah.

As for the other theory...

"Baby, you're so talented. And they're so dumb!"

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

evangelical christians will have the same fate as everyone else when they die: they will be all dressed up with nowhere to go.

 

[Archivist]

Admiral Beez's repulsive and ludicrous suggestion of singling out some for special attention is not really working that well in places like Texas, is it now?

Re: Four murders a year from "legal" guns. This exerpted article is from the Globe yesterday, though it is about a rifle rather than a handgun. But I simply don't believe this "fact" about four murders a year, particularly when the quote that I recall from about two months about about the 30% of murders from "legal" guns came from the police themselves.

Family of victims lash out as smirking killer gets life sentence

Mr. Imeson had been charged with first-degree murder in the deaths of Mrs. Regier, 73, and her 72-year-old husband. He pleaded guilty to the lesser charge, and was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years. ...He also pleaded guilty to second-degree murder for killing student Carlos Rivera, 25, in Windsor, a few days before he shot the Regiers. He was sentenced to life without parole eligibility for 15 years on that count.
... According to an agreed statement of facts, Mr. Imeson strangled Mr. Rivera with a belt after waking up and finding the architecture student performing a sex act on him. ... After killing Mr. Rivera, Mr. Imeson fled north to Grand Bend, Ont., along the Lake Huron shoreline.... Mr. Imeson ditched Mr. Rivera's car when he realized police were looking for it, and broke into a dry shed, where he found a .22 semi-automatic rifle and 200 rounds of ammunition.... On July 22, he smashed his way into the farmhouse where Mr. Regier was born and raised, and ordered the couple at gunpoint into the basement....He then shot Mrs. Regier four times in the chin, shoulder, neck and chest; and her husband three times - twice in the chest and once in the temple - leaving her bleeding to death on the ground and her dying husband in a half-standing position, held up by his bound hands.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Admiral Beez's repulsive and ludicrous suggestion of singling out some for special attention is not really working that well in places like Texas, is it now?

But others are singling out other groups and factors for special attention, such as legal gun owners and guns themselves. Why can't we look at the most common factor of them all? I don't know what's going on in Texas, you tell us.

What the overall US stats show is that violent crime by all groups is going down in the US at the same time that the prison population is rising dramatically. Go figure, taking violent criminals off the streets and into jails results in a decreasing violent crime rate.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Okay, Beez. You're identified a demographic. What exactly do you suggest Miller do? How does one put fear into a specific segment of a specific demographic?

Longer jail sentences for a start would be nice. Plus retraction of citizenship and immediate or post-jail deportations for those, like myself not born in Canada. Throw in complete asset and property seizure of murderers (not just proceeds of crime, but everything), with proceeds going to the families of their victims. Next, a total lifetime ban from living in public housing. Of course you ideally want to strike fear into these guys BEFORE they kill, so you need to trigger some levels of real, feared penalties for possession of firearms.

 

[woodyb]

Longer jail sentences for a start would be nice. Plus retraction of citizenship and immediate or post-jail deportations for those, like myself not born in Canada. Throw in complete asset and property seizure of murderers (not just proceeds of crime, but everything), with proceeds going to the families of their victims. Next, a total lifetime ban from living in public housing. Of course you ideally want to strike fear into these guys BEFORE they kill, so you need to trigger some levels of real, feared penalties for possession of firearms.

Hear hear.

 

[salvius]

Plus retraction of citizenship and immediate or post-jail deportations for those, like myself not born in Canada.

What you're suggesting, then, is two classes of citizenship: those born in Canada, and those that aren't. I cannot think of a country that does that, and it's obviously unconstitutional. Unless you plan to never grant citizenship to immigrants at all, it's not doable.

It's also one of the most repulsive things I've heard in a while.

 

[Voltz]

Most if the hardened street criminal are not even citizens and do not have any intention of becoming one, so deportation could be used more often than not. But criminals who do get deported will often end up being found back on the streets within a few months.


But having just spent the day shooting a bunch of evil handguns for the first time, I can assure everyone that they are completely safe, not once did one of them jump up, load themselves and try to shoot someone. And I am a surprisingly good shot as well (Gun control means using both hands).

 

[W. K. Lis]

Trick-or-treater, 12, shot to death, police say

From CNN:

SUMTER, South Carolina (AP) -- An ex-convict who said he thought he was being robbed gunned down a 12-year-old trick-or-treater, spraying nearly 30 rounds with an assault rifle from inside his home after hearing a knock on the door, police said Saturday.

Quentin Patrick, 22, is accused of killing 12-year-old T.J. Darrisaw on Friday night. T.J.'s 9-year-old brother, Ahmadre Darrisaw, and their father, Freddie Grinnell, were injured but were released after being treated at a hospital.

The family attended a Halloween celebration in downtown Sumter, 45 miles east of Columbia, then stopped at Patrick's house because the porch light was on, police said. Another sibling was with them but wasn't hurt.

Police said at least two of the boys were wearing ghoulish masks when they knocked on the door. The boys' mother and a toddler stayed in the car nearby.

Patrick emptied his AK-47, shooting at least 29 times through his front door, walls and windows after hearing the knock, Police Chief Patty Patterson said.

He told police he had been robbed and shot in the past year.

"He wasn't going to be robbed again, and he wasn't going to be shot again," Patterson said Saturday at a news conference.

She said T.J., a bright young man, suffered multiple wounds, including a fatal shot to his head. No one answered the door at the family's home Saturday.

"This is by far one of the worst tragedies that I have had to personally experience," Patterson said. "It happened basically because kids were out doing what they would normally do on Halloween."

Patrick has been charged with murder, three counts of assault and battery with intent to kill, and one count of assault with intent to kill.

Police said they also charged a 19-year-old in his home, Ericka Patrice Pee, with obstruction of justice when she was caught trying to run away after the shooting with $7,500 in cash. Patterson did not give an explanation for the money.

Pee's 2-year-old daughter was inside during the shooting and is now being cared for by family members.

Patterson said Patrick had multiple drug convictions but police do not believe he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol during the shooting. Authorities did not know if Patrick or Pee had attorneys. Both are being held without bond.

A man who identified himself as Patrick's brother but declined to give his name said in a call to The Associated Press that he believed Patrick was suffering from post-traumatic stress after a break-in last December. The man's account matched the information police provided.

"We want to let his family know that this is a total tragic accident," he said. "He was trying to protect his family."

Patrick's home is off a busy, two-lane road in Sumter, a city of about 40,000 people. On Saturday, shattered glass still covered the front stoop and about 20 bullet holes peppered the front door and a front-window casement.

The shooting shocked residents of a neighborhood where most people know each other well.

"I just hate it that that little kid got killed. It used to be the quietest place. I knew everybody and everybody knew me," said Vivian Johnson, 81, who lives two doors from Patrick and Pee but said she did not know them.

County Councilman Charles Edens said he lives just a few blocks away and passed the crime scene on his way back from trick-or-treating with his 13-year-old daughter, who was upset by the news.

"It's going to put a dampening on Halloween," Eden said. "I would think twice about going to a door that we don't know who lives behind."

 

[afransen]

"AK-47"

Why on earth would civilians be allowed to own assault rifles, much less convicts!

 

[afransen]

Yes. Once someone is granted citizenship, it can't be taken away--and for good reason.

 

[junctionist]

Longer jail sentences for a start would be nice. Plus retraction of citizenship and immediate or post-jail deportations for those, like myself not born in Canada. Throw in complete asset and property seizure of murderers (not just proceeds of crime, but everything), with proceeds going to the families of their victims. Next, a total lifetime ban from living in public housing. Of course you ideally want to strike fear into these guys BEFORE they kill, so you need to trigger some levels of real, feared penalties for possession of firearms.

That'll only stop some criminals, but won't do anything about the many who are desperate and don't fully appreciate the risk until after the crime. In a confrontation a gang member isn't likely to consider the consequences of violence. And beyond that, there are always ways to bring down severe charges since it's never guaranteed there will be enough evidence.

I also question your suggestion of property seizure, which is undemocratic. What does the property owned have to do with the crime? This right wasn't abused to take someone's life. Forfeiting rights so that the government can better instill fear in the people is a terrible idea because it can be abused creatively by the government for a variety of interests.

How would you justify deportation? A person with citizenship has obtained the same rights as any Canadian. That's reasonable in promoting integration and equality since the majority of immigrants won't commit major crimes.

 

[Voltz]

"AK-47"

Why on earth would civilians be allowed to own assault rifles, much less convicts!

He was not allowed to own any guns because if his record. How was he able to get that gun? the same was criminals do a lot of things, THEY BREAK THE LAW.

It might surprise many people to know that there are people in canada who legally own AK-47's and other evil "assault weapons"

 

[Admiral Beez]

What you're suggesting, then, is two classes of citizenship: those born in Canada, and those that aren't. I cannot think of a country that does that, and it's obviously unconstitutional. Unless you plan to never grant citizenship to immigrants at all, it's not doable.

It's also one of the most repulsive things I've heard in a while.

We certainly do it for war criminals. If you a foreign-born Canadian citizen your citizenship can be revoked and you can be deported.