[Tewder]

However, the other thing is, Chicago's waterfront isn't a welcoming place for locals. It's primarily a tourist destination. Toronto's waterfront is filling up with condos (for better or for worse) and it means that the area is far friendlier to locals.

This is also overwrought. The Chicago waterfront may be teaming with tourists but it is also beloved by locals, extremely connected to the Loop and full of museums and popular public spaces.

 

[Tewder]

k10ery: I don't mean to get as annoyed as I do with the "We should have an iconic temple at every corner" crowd, but two things drive me nuts in UT debates:

1. Absolutely no context/history/thoughts as to the use of a building or park.
2. No thought whatsoever as to cost.

Harbourfront punches both buttons, because almost every debate starts and ends with "it's moving too slow and they need to spend more money" and "they should build a grand temple, but respect the view corridors and parks on the shoreline."

You take an apologist stance to it because you like the space and are knowledgeable. I get it, though I'm not sure whether this is more objective or less so. In this sense I get Kkgg7's point (as irritatingly as he puts it across).

 

[RC8]

You take an apologist stance to it because you like the space and are knowledgeable. I get it, though I'm not sure whether this is more objective or less so. In this sense I get Kkgg7's point (as irritatingly as he puts it across).

At the end of the day the problem with kkgg7's point (and all others) is that it shows large amounts of disregard for any type of context.

I could go on and on for hours about how incredibly pathetic it is that Shanghai, located so close to the sea, has some of the most horrendous polluted and unpopular beaches in the planet. I know too many people from shanghai who actually don't know how to swim at all and have never ever been in the sea.

I could also criticise Malmo, Sweden, for only having this as a waterfront:

But I wouldn't, because I'd come off as an imbecile who can't appreciate beautiful meaningful unpretentious things.

I live near the waterfront, and I wouldn't change Harbourfront centre, the silos, etc. I'd rather have the islands than most waterfront features in most cities. I love being able to go for a swim either at the islands or at The Beach in the summer.

I would like to see the brutalist condos in queens quay gone or see their influence softened, but I can't criticise WT or harbourfront centre for that.

Let me guess what's next... we should have done to the don river what Paris did to the Seine?

 

[k10ery]

Considering its early 80s moment, that's a bit of a overwrought judgment.

Well, it's probably true that our expectations for these projects changed after we saw what a good architect could do with the Bankside Power Station. But I think even back in the 80s QQT was underwhelming. Mainly the configuration of public space around the atrium.

On the other hand, I think Eaton Centre is a great building, and in ways quite similar to the Tate Modern project.

 

[kkgg7]

I could go on and on for hours about how incredibly pathetic it is that Shanghai, located so close to the sea, has some of the most horrendous polluted and unpopular beaches in the planet. I know too many people from shanghai who actually don't know how to swim at all and have never ever been in the sea.

?

with all due respect, all the beach-bathing thing is a western culture. Asians don't value beaches as much as Westerners do, not by a long shot. Even in the summer, women hold umbrellas to get away from the sun, for fear of getting tanned. Do you really think if there is a beautiful beach by Shanghai, people will rush there lying half naked getting tanned? Your typical western mindset is laughable. Asians do NOT care about beaches and getting tanned, learn to accept and respect that. They would rather go to a karaokay bar than the beach on a summer afternoon.

It is true many Shanghainese can't swim. so what? Do you know how crowded Shanghai is and what the public swimming pools look like in the summer? Most likely you have ten people in each lane and more than 60 in the pool. You get touched and kicked all the time. There is no way you can really "swim", not to say to learn to swim. You really need to get some reality check before starting to criticize other countries.

 

[kkgg7]

This is also overwrought. The Chicago waterfront may be teaming with tourists but it is also beloved by locals, extremely connected to the Loop and full of museums and popular public spaces.

I find it amusing everytime we compare with Chicago, its breaktaking downtown and waterfront, people talk as if their beauty and excellent design don't matter and pretend all those are just some empty soulless facade only to attract tourists, and that no local families would ever go there, when in fact it can't be further from the truth.
Yes, I recognize those who always prefer burying their head under the sand refusing to acknowledge that many other cities indeed did a better job in some aspects and keeping convincing themselves that those don't matter at all and everything is still better in their hometown.

Chicago's downtown and waterfront are miles ahead of ours. It is time for us to admit that, instead of resorting to "oh, we have so much more vibrant life and pedestrians" kind of pathetic argument every time.

 

[Tewder]

We absolutely do not have to imitate Chicago's waterfront, copying their 'recipe' line by line... we can create our own version and our own 'recipe' as long as we do it with quality and integrity. A lot of mistakes have been made in Toronto and we haven't always approached design and planning in the area with either quality or integrity... HOWEVER, there are some encouraging signs and things are definitely improving, even if very slowly.

When all is said and done you may still prefer the experience and awe of the Waterfront in Chicago, which is fair. It's like comparing well-executed meals from two different cuisines in that both may be 'excellent' for what they are but you may still have a preference for one of them.

 

[kkgg7]

HOWEVER, there are some encouraging signs and things are definitely improving, even if very slowly.

True. It is couraging to see the waterfront east of Yonge St finally gets developed. As late as three years ago, it was still a complete wasteland, when it is really just at the foot of downtown.
I have no idea why the east part has been neglected so badly and for so long. At least Queen's Quay all the way to Parliament should be in decent shape. Although unlikely, I hope the Redpath Refinery will be gone asap. No matter what you do, that concret monsters stands out as a big eyesore ruining every bit of beauty created nearby.

 

[RC8]

with all due respect, all the beach-bathing thing is a western culture. Asians don't value beaches as much as Westerners do, not by a long shot. Even in the summer, women hold umbrellas to get away from the sun, for fear of getting tanned. Do you really think if there is a beautiful beach by Shanghai, people will rush there lying half naked getting tanned? Your typical western mindset is laughable. Asians do NOT care about beaches and getting tanned, learn to accept and respect that. They would rather go to a karaokay bar than the beach on a summer afternoon.

It is true many Shanghainese can't swim. so what? Do you know how crowded Shanghai is and what the public swimming pools look like in the summer? Most likely you have ten people in each lane and more than 60 in the pool. You get touched and kicked all the time. There is no way you can really "swim", not to say to learn to swim. You really need to get some reality check before starting to criticize other countries.

Thanks for giving me the reaction I wanted.

You in your ethnocentric superficial vision of the world want to see Victorian buildings and Redpath gone, completely ignoring the culture local to the place you are referring to. But god forbid someone comes up with an equivalent criticism towards a city you are close to. Building small walkable and culturally rich spaces while preserving neighbourhood's values is prioritised in this city more often than building grand gestures. This wasn't always this way, as the CN Tower, the Skydome, and the Financial District indicate, but right now there is an inclination towards building neighbourhoods - which is the way northern europeans have been conducting themselves for ages (and they're all the better for it).

This summer I took one of my best friends from Shanghai down to the islands. We were surrounded by beautiful parks and beaches as I taught him how to swim in the lake. He said he had never felt so in touch with nature before, and was in awe at the stunning landscaped fields and the shiny water. I quote him, "I wish we had a place like this in Shanghai".

He quite clearly likes Toronto's waterfront better.

Chicago has one of the most impressive waterfronts of any city, there's nothing to be ashamed of if we can't compare to them in that regard. Our beaches are nicer though.

 

[jn_12]

Chicago's downtown and waterfront are miles ahead of ours. It is time for us to admit that, instead of resorting to "oh, we have so much more vibrant life and pedestrians" kind of pathetic argument every time.

I'll post this again since you seem to have missed it (or ignored it) the first time:

Saying "why can't our waterfront be more like Chicago's?" is like saying "why can't the AGO and ROM be more like the Louvre and the British Museum?" You're comparing Toronto to quite literally the best in the world at that one thing. No one has a waterfront like Chicago's except for Chicago, and the only reason it's like that is because of the culmination of 200 years worth of planning and circumstance: Plans for the city 200 years ago called for Grant Park. Throw in the fact that the Adler Planetarium and the Shedd Aquarium were only built because two wealthy men donated a lot of money to have them built and the Field Museum and Art Institute only exist because they held the 1893 World's Columbian Expo. Finally, and perhaps unparalleled anywhere, the private sector paid for half of the nearly $500million cost to build Millennium Park. Also keep in mind, we're talking about a period (city beautiful movement) when grandiose and ambitious structures and plans were the norm around the world. Toronto has a few remnants of this era, but we're talking about comparing us to a city that was one of the wealthiest in the world during that specific period and perhaps at the forefront of the entire movement.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I hope the Redpath Refinery will be gone asap. No matter what you do, that concret monsters stands out as a big eyesore ruining every bit of beauty created nearby.

It's becoming clear that you are so far down the rabbit hole of "don't get it", that debate is of little use. You have an extreme myopic view of things.

I think the way the Redpath situation was handled turned out even better than planned. What started out as an idea of "when you have lemons...make lemonade", appears to have actually resulted in champagne.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

It's becoming clear that you are so far down the rabbit hole of "don't get it", that debate is of little use. You have an extreme myopic view of things.

I think the way the Redpath situation was handled turned out even better than planned. What started out as an idea of "when you have lemons...make lemonade", appears to have actually resulted in champagne.

I'm starting to think that kkgg7 is actually posting from Shanghai or another non-Toronto location. Anyone with any knowledge of Toronto would know Redpath isn't going anywhere, ever. Latest evidence: the brand spanking new (and a beautiful apple green!) unloader they've just put in. Supposedly those things run $10M...

 

[kkgg7]

Thanks for giving me the reaction I wanted.

You in your ethnocentric superficial vision of the world want to see Victorian buildings and Redpath gone, completely ignoring the culture local to the place you are referring to. But god forbid someone comes up with an equivalent criticism towards a city you are close to. Building small walkable and culturally rich spaces while preserving neighbourhood's values is prioritised in this city more often than building grand gestures. This wasn't always this way, as the CN Tower, the Skydome, and the Financial District indicate, but right now there is an inclination towards building neighbourhoods - which is the way northern europeans have been conducting themselves for ages (and they're all the better for it).

This summer I took one of my best friends from Shanghai down to the islands. We were surrounded by beautiful parks and beaches as I taught him how to swim in the lake. He said he had never felt so in touch with nature before, and was in awe at the stunning landscaped fields and the shiny water. I quote him, "I wish we had a place like this in Shanghai".

He quite clearly likes Toronto's waterfront better.

Chicago has one of the most impressive waterfronts of any city, there's nothing to be ashamed of if we can't compare to them in that regard. Our beaches are nicer though.

Let's not pretend the Redpath has any cutural/historical meanings to it. It is a sugar refinery. Get over it.
I am not advocating eradicate all Victorian houses in the city. I actually like them. The thing is, a big city need to advance, and its land is precious. We can't afford to keep ALL the Victorian houses, especially many that don't look great but occupy very central locations. It is not exactly smart to keep a big Victorian house with 1000sf of backyard at Bay and King, is it? Toronto is not short of Victorian houses. There are probably more Victorian houses than condos, office buildings, or any other types of houses in the city. You want Toronto to be city with all Victorian houses lined with trees, move to the suburbs. No 21st big city looks like that.

As to your Shanghai story, I totally believe it. Of course Shanghainese want a park like our islands park. The city is 10 tens the size of Toronto and green space is more valued. It is no surprise to me, but Shanghai has many nice things Toronto does not either. It has the famous "Bund" lined with 19th grand century architectures of different types; it is renovated Riverside Promenade in Pudong district with incredible views is a LOT nicer than our messy Queen's Quay. Its Century Park's landscaping combines British, Japanese, and Chinese gardening styles, is a real gem in the city, and A LOT nicer than High Park, and is served by 3 subway stations. "Stunning landscape" on Toronto islands? these words must come from you, not your friend from Shanghai. Feel free to google for more information and you will stop feeling sorry for Shanghainese. Trust me, they have a lot Torontonians don't get.

 

[kkgg7]

I'm starting to think that kkgg7 is actually posting from Shanghai or another non-Toronto location. Anyone with any knowledge of Toronto would know Redpath isn't going anywhere, ever. Latest evidence: the brand spanking new (and a beautiful apple green!) unloader they've just put in. Supposedly those things run $10M...

which part of "although unlikely" before "I hope" do you have trouble understanding??
does anyone else besides me think Redpath is unbelievably ugly? It is a sugar refinery, let's not pretend it is some sort of Versaille carrying so much historical value. It is hardly different from a power plant, or the LaFarge cement factory further away on the lake, no matter how important you imagine it to be.

 

[paraone]

We can't afford to keep ALL the Victorian houses, especially many that don't look great but occupy very central locations. It is not exactly smart to keep a big Victorian house with 1000sf of backyard at Bay and King, is it? Toronto is not short of Victorian houses. There are probably more Victorian houses than condos, office buildings, or any other types of houses in the city. You want Toronto to be city with all Victorian houses lined with trees, move to the suburbs.

wow! where to begin.... how about this.... name me one suburb that has a large stock of victorian architecture, an I don't mean a little main st strip with a collection of 10-15 houses.
And where oh where is there any Victorian with a 1000sf backyard? I want to see this. your not going to win any friends around here with this argument.

Also please see San Francisco, lots of victorians there.