News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.4K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 39K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 4.7K     0 

We have a bridge... the old CP one is in storage. Cut it down the middle, expand it by 10', add a pedestrian/bike path and set it at the proper grade.
not trying to be rude, genuinely curious because I've only heard it referred to as a 'was', although there was always an intent to keep it, where did those bridge pieces wind up? I heard about a plan from ERRS (way back in their early days, pre HLB line) of reusing that bridge for a line running out of the park along the river, That bridge would be reinstalled over the mouth of the Whitemud Creek. there were huge cost and engineering concerns, mostly surrounding reassembling the bridge in a way that was structurally sound enough for an engineer to sign off on it. (that was the issue focused on by the person telling me about it; how big of an issue that actually was, as opposed to cost or something else, idk)That plan was put aside probably 30 years ago, based on what I heard. anyways, I wonder where that bridge ended up.
 
Just a couple things. First, I revamped the ERR Wikipedia article that I made a while back, so now there's more info in the history section, and more pictures as well.

Fun fact I learned while researching for it (and also put in the article): In 1938, an Engineer consultant was hired to analyze the findings of a 1937 administration report that recommended transitioning to trolley buses. His report not only supported the 1937 report's recommendations, but went as far as suggesting that Edmonton take the streetcar tracks off of the High Level Bridge, and repurpose that right of way for trolley buses! I am not sure what the implications would be for the CP line, but the city did send someone to Toronto and Montreal to consult with experts from CP and the Canadian Bridge Company. Fortunately, it never came to fruition even though the city supported gradually moving away from streetcars. Just imagine if we were stuck with a two-level road bridge. Even if the upper portion remained as dedicated bus lanes to this day, seeing motor vehicles up there would really take away from the charm. There's something special about having a bridge here that supports road and rail vehicles as well as pedestrians. And if Edmonton used the top deck for trolley buses when CP trains stopped using it in the 80s, I doubt that the CP ROW would have stayed unused for long enough to get scooped up by the ERRS; Edmonton would most certainly convert is either to another bus lane, or a car lane. And streetcars > buses.

EDIT: I forgot that they're on here too, but thanks to @_Citizen_Dane_ for pointing me towards the 1938 Wilson report on another website!

Secondly, here are some pics I took from the book Edmonton's Electric Railway; one of the authors (Colin Hatcher) is actually the ERRS Archivist (but I got these pics from a copy I bought before joining).

Apparently, streetcars and trains could cross the HLB before cars and pedestrians could!
HLB Construction.jpg


You can see a streetcar near the rear of this train, so this picture shows just how close they got on that bridge.
HLB Streetcar and Train.jpg


When Edmonton #1 first went across the HLB, it had to tow a diesel generator to supply its power because the lines weren't up yet.
Edmonton 1.jpg

Why didn't they add overhead power lines back then? The streetcar was restored by some interested ETS staff members and volunteers from the Canadian Railroad Historical Association in the 1960s, after sitting outside in the Cromdale transit yard for 11 years and getting battered by weather and vandals. The initial restoration didn't include electrical work or putting it back on trucks. Originally, that was all that was supposed to happen to it; Hatcher's book says that after it was displayed on a float for the 100th annual Klondike Days Parade, it was kept inside the Cromdale garage and a sign was put on it saying "Held for archives".

But when Edmonton's 75th anniversary as a city rolled around in 1979, more interested ETS employees and volunteers -including some former ERR motormen- restored it to operation condition and it took people for trips over the HLB from October 6-8, 1979, which was a long weekend. But the ERRS was only formed afterward, when many of these volunteers asked themselves "what now"? once the trips were all done. There was no active plan to keep running streetcars on the HLB. The ERRS operated regular service at Fort Edmonton Park (taking Edmonton #1 with them) for around 11 years before coming to the HLB in 1995, when they were asked about operating streetcar service from Old Strathcona to Grandin (now Government Centre) for the Fringe Festival. Their car on that line, Osaka 247, also needed to use a diesel generator for the first year of operations; ERRS volunteers strung the overhead wire next year, and utilized the original power poles on the HLB's upper deck since they were not removed after streetcar service stopped (Only one or two poles, I think on the north end of the bridge, are replacements).

Going back to the 75th Anniversary trips, the city wanted their commemorative picture of the event to look authentic. So they retouched the picture... see if you can notice how.
Edmonton #1 on HLB.jpg


This next picture isn't from the book, but it's still cool. In 1979, before driving it on CP and CN tracks to the HLB line, the volunteers tested it on the LRT tracks. So there's even a picture of it in the LRT tunnel!
Streetcar on LRT track.png


Last but not least, there was also a picture in the book of the "typical" driving area in an Edmonton streetcar.
Streetcar driving area old.jpg


I'm putting that here just to show you how authentic a ride on a FEP or HLB streetcar really is. For comparison, here's a shot of the driving area in Edmonton #33 that I took a few weeks ago.
Streetcar driving area new.jpg

On the left is the controller, which controls how much electricity gets through the resistor grids - the more power gets through, the faster you go. The black handle on the right applies the air brakes, and the gauge above it tells us how much air is in the tank. The one thing in the old picture that's not in mine is the reverse key; it's a metal insert that gets pushed into the black mount you see on the right side of the controller. If the key points forward, then you go forward, if it's pointing back, you go in reverse, and if it's not in there at all, then the controller's handle won't budge. So as you can see, how they are driven now is exactly the same as how they were driven back then. We have a 1919 instruction document from an American streetcar system that's been uploaded on the website, and it's actually quite useful for new motormen like myself; all the same principals apply today.

Just to end on a lighter note, this guy's speech (which I got from the book 'Ride of the Century') made me laugh at some parts. "You can either lose your right leg, or your left leg..."
Streetcar supporter.jpg
 

Attachments

  • Streetcar driving area old.jpg
    Streetcar driving area old.jpg
    216.8 KB · Views: 61
  • Streetcar driving area new.jpg
    Streetcar driving area new.jpg
    213.7 KB · Views: 63
Last edited:
@CplKlinger, I feel like I could drive it now... look out small children, Teddy's at the wheel.
I'll make sure to leave the city before you start, lest you make a wrong turn and wind up cruising the streets haha. I already know what I'll need to warn passengers before I start my certification run tomorrow: "If something should happen along the way, please remember that it was my instructor driving ;)" It should go ok though, as long as I don't hit anyone. I've already finished my training shifts, the certification run during park hours is just the final test to make sure you're good to do it alone. That's especially important since the FEP streetcars don't have conductors, so on days where the park is open but restoration and maintenance isn't going on in the streetcar barn, you'd literally be the only one from the ERRS in the park.

Driving at FEP is soothing once you get the hang of it; you just do your thing with the controller, and try to make the smoothest stop you can. It's really satisfying once you get a few training sessions in, and you really notice the difference from when you first started; you're able to get to the speed you need quicker, meaning you can coast for longer, and you get a lot better at applying a little bit of brake well before your stop so that you can stop at the platform nice and smooth, instead of slamming on the brakes right at the end or missing them altogether (I'm guilty of both). Once I'm certified, I'll really enjoy going there in off-hours and just driving laps to practice, with nothing and (almost) nobody else to worry about. It'll be different with kids running around, but at least you don't need to content with vehicles (aside from the historic ones driven by FEP staff/volunteers).

The HLB line looks fun to drive at as well, but it's a very different atmosphere. The cross traffic must get stressful, and you also need to interact with the public more when you're doing the role of conductor (motormen take turns driving and conducting on each shift), whereas at FEP you mainly just drive and answer some questions. But honking at the worst of the drivers must be a little cathartic. I mean, that thing is quite loud!
 
Last edited:
His report not only supported the 1937 report's recommendations, but went as far as suggesting that Edmonton take the streetcar tracks off of the High Level Bridge, and repurpose that right of way for trolley buses! I am not sure what the implications would be for the CP line, but the city did send someone to Toronto and Montreal to consult with experts from CP and the Canadian Bridge Company. Fortunately, it never came to fruition even though the city supported gradually moving away from streetcars. Just imagine if we were stuck with a two-level road bridge. Even if the upper portion remained as dedicated bus lanes to this day, seeing motor vehicles up there would really take away from the charm.
This idea never truly died until the streetcar network did. Another proposal, similar in nearly every respect, surfaced in 1949. I'll include a picture or two from the Edmonton Bulletin below. Momentum built, and at that year’s municipal election the matter went to plebiscite. On their ballots, Edmontonians were asked:

“Shall Council pass a bylaw creating a debenture debt in the sum of $1,000,000.00 for the purpose of providing a four-lane vehicular traffic deck on the High Level Bridge to relieve serious traffic congestion between North and South Sides of the river. Serial plan debentures to be issued, 30-year term; interest 33⁄4 per centum per annum, payable semi-annually?”​

14,400 Edmontonians voted “yes” against 2,000 “no.” However, the projected conversion cost rose significantly over the coming year, and at the 1950 municipal election (they were held every year back then — Mayors switched out yearly, with councillors every two) voters were asked about borrowing more:

“Shall Council pass a bylaw creating a debenture debt in the sum of $500,000.00 to be applied toward the cost of providing a four lane vehicular traffic deck on the High Level Bridge to relieve serious traffic congestion?”​

9,000 voted “yes” against 8,500 “no.” As plebiscites required a two-thirds majority to pass, the matter was dropped. In retrospect, it's interesting that the idea never resurfaced in the years after the street railway system was abandoned. The space was there, though I assume engineering on and off ramps at each end of the bridge and integrating them into the street grid was likely seen as too much of a hassle.
Edmonton Bulletin, High Level Bridge, Proposed 1949 Modification Model.jpg
Edmonton Bulletin, High Level Bridge, Proposed 1949 Modification.jpg
 
This idea never truly died until the streetcar network did. Another proposal, similar in nearly every respect, surfaced in 1949. I'll include a picture or two from the Edmonton Bulletin below. Momentum built, and at that year’s municipal election the matter went to plebiscite. On their ballots, Edmontonians were asked:

“Shall Council pass a bylaw creating a debenture debt in the sum of $1,000,000.00 for the purpose of providing a four-lane vehicular traffic deck on the High Level Bridge to relieve serious traffic congestion between North and South Sides of the river. Serial plan debentures to be issued, 30-year term; interest 33⁄4 per centum per annum, payable semi-annually?”​

14,400 Edmontonians voted “yes” against 2,000 “no.” However, the projected conversion cost rose significantly over the coming year, and at the 1950 municipal election (they were held every year back then — Mayors switched out yearly, with councillors every two) voters were asked about borrowing more:

“Shall Council pass a bylaw creating a debenture debt in the sum of $500,000.00 to be applied toward the cost of providing a four lane vehicular traffic deck on the High Level Bridge to relieve serious traffic congestion?”​

9,000 voted “yes” against 8,500 “no.” As plebiscites required a two-thirds majority to pass, the matter was dropped. In retrospect, it's interesting that the idea never resurfaced in the years after the street railway system was abandoned. The space was there, though I assume engineering on and off ramps at each end of the bridge and integrating them into the street grid was likely seen as too much of a hassle.
View attachment 406514View attachment 406513
Holy crap. Thanks, I hate it. I can't believe that so many Edmontonians voted *for* it... we really dodged a bullet with that one, and we didn't even deserve that reprieve. I found some more info and pictures here for anyone else interested (I'm assuming Dane has already see all of that, and then some).


I'll go ahead and add some of that info to the article, thank you :)
EDIT: Here's another one from 1963
 
Last edited:
Holy crap. Thanks, I hate it. I can't believe that so many Edmontonians voted *for* it... we really dodged a bullet with that one, and we didn't even deserve that reprieve. I found some more info and pictures here for anyone else interested (I'm assuming Dane has already see all of that, and then some).


I'll go ahead and add some of that info to the article, thank you :)
EDIT: Here's another one from 1963
Classic example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Or at least "well intentioned." Like I said before my ideal solution? Twin the bridge with a replica span and rebuild the existing HLB BACK to its full core strength of 2 car lanes, 2 Edmonton Radial Railway/Transit lines and at least one through-running CP mainline... So we'd end up for the next 100 years with a total of 4 car lanes, 4 ETS lines (1 high floor, 1 low floor in each direction) + a North AND South mainline for passenger/regional/express rail... Who's with me?
 
My other idea in the meantime that I've been proposing for years? Make the High Level Line a joint venture between ETS and ERRS like in other cities that share track. The city can be responsible for the tracks, power lines, etc with ERRS just concentrating on operating heritage fleets for tourists during the high season with regular new low-floor streetcars running 24/7/365 the rest of the year on the line. This service is and should always be the Edmonton version of the New York Shuttle! The 3 station express line that connects Penn-Bryant Park-Times Square and Grand Central together with a shuttle line that does nothing but connect its largest train stations and tourist attractions together back and forth over and over again on repeat. It's also the most lucrative service in MTA history according to transit YouTubers... If you want to re-establish trust and safety in Edmonton Transit you need to try new things and this might be it! Plus lets face it, the gondola may or may not ever be built but we have a functional but underused rail line right now that could AND SHOULD be upgraded. And yes I know all about the weight restrictions/age of the bridge but that can be factored in now by only running single cars at a time EMU style and just doing a "one at a time" approach to running across it. You know... Like they do now!
 
The Whyte Ave stop will be out of service at least for tomorrow, but the closure could go on for longer. Edmonton #33 depoled while crossing Gateway going south shortly before 3:00 today, and it was bad enough that it bent. Fortunately, it was within thr last hour of service, and they could use Osaka 247 as the 2nd car for the remainder.

A lot of calls were made, and some volunteers who do restoration and maintenance came out to take a look. They think that there's an issue with the isolator (which stops power passing from the main overhead wire to the support wires) above Gateway that poses a similar risk to Melbourne 930 (Osaka 247 has an LRT-like pantograph so might be a bit safer).

As it stood today, they want to fix this issue before using Whyte Ave again. Whether it gets fixed tomorrow, or they find another satisfactory solution which allows them to open the Whyte Ave stop on Monday, remains to be seen. It's all very recent, and I'm not in the loop unless I'm physically there.

20220625_144847.jpg
20220625_144856.jpg


The isolator is that black soeck where the two wires look like they meet.
20220625_151844.jpg
20220625_151847.jpg
 
^that crossing they moved past the tracks with a stupid light is stupid. It's not intuitive for drivers or pedestrians and folks have choices north and south within a block.
 
^that crossing they moved past the tracks with a stupid light is stupid. It's not intuitive for drivers or pedestrians and folks have choices north and south within a block.
Yeah, I hate it too. It's a good system in theory, but the city should have found a way to get the crosswalk closer to the actual lights. Come to think of it, it'd be nice if they widened the track ROW on the south end so that the shared use path could continue on straight, instead of dumping people at a glorified sidewalk.
 

Back
Top