[TheTigerMaster]

How long will this HSR Environmental Assessment take? The TPAP for local transit projects is typically six months. Can we expect the HSR EA to conclude so quickly?

 

[nfitz]

How long will this HSR Environmental Assessment take? The TPAP for local transit projects is typically six months. Can we expect the HSR EA to conclude so quickly?

I'd think it would to be a full blown EA. The TPAP process is designed for urban areas, where they tend to stick to existing road alignments, so the environmental impacts really come down to noise and social. From London to Toronto, they will be going through mostly rural areas, with agriculture, forests, protected wetlands, greenbelt, and also has to cross the Niagara Escarpment at some point. At a quick estimate at the table would be about 5 or 6 Conservation Authorities (depending on which route they go - but you normally have different options), about 33 upper and lower tier municipalities, who knows how many First Nations (though GTA West from Toronto to Guelph had 15), and surely a half-dozen provincial ministries and agencies - and presumably Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

It's going to be a lot more than 6 months. Perhaps the closest parallel of late would be the GTA West corridor where the EA was in 2 stages following the completion of the Terms of Reference (TOR) started in I believe 2006 and wascompleted in July 2007. At the time of it's suspension during Stage 2 in 2015, it was planned to be approved by the end of 2018. So about 12 years. However, even after 9 years, it was still not clear if they also had to also do an assessment that met the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act requirements.

Given the increased complexity of this project (where it's twice as long, presumably having twice as many stakeholders, and also private corporations such as Canadian Pacific and Canadian Nation to deal with, then 6 years (rather than 6 months) would be incredibly optimistic. And all that assume there is no appeal. That alone could add years to the process.

 

[kEiThZ]

From the report, it's clear that there's a case for Toronto-London. London-Windsor has a rather weak case. So even if this goes forward, I think the second phase is a long ways off.

I still think this will get rolled into VIA HFR at some point. The province has no money. And I think they'd be more than happy to have the Infra Bank and VIA build it. Queen's Park will get to claim credit with minimal involvement or dollars.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'd think it would to be a full blown EA. The TPAP process is designed for urban areas, where they tend to stick to existing road alignments, so the environmental impacts really come down to noise and social. From London to Toronto, they will be going through mostly rural areas, with agriculture, forests, protected wetlands, greenbelt, and also has to cross the Niagara Escarpment at some point. At a quick estimate at the table would be about 5 or 6 Conservation Authorities (depending on which route they go - but you normally have different options), about 33 upper and lower tier municipalities, who knows how many First Nations (though GTA West from Toronto to Guelph had 15), and surely a half-dozen provincial ministries and agencies - and presumably Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

It's going to be a lot more than 6 months. Perhaps the closest parallel of late would be the GTA West corridor where the EA was in 2 stages following the completion of the Terms of Reference (TOR) started in I believe 2006 and wascompleted in July 2007. At the time of it's suspension during Stage 2 in 2015, it was planned to be approved by the end of 2018. So about 12 years. However, even after 9 years, it was still not clear if they also had to also do an assessment that met the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act requirements.

Given the increased complexity of this project (where it's twice as long, presumably having twice as many stakeholders, and also private corporations such as Canadian Pacific and Canadian Nation to deal with, then 6 years (rather than 6 months) would be incredibly optimistic. And all that assume there is no appeal. That alone could add years to the process.

View attachment 109195

If six years is optimistic, how in the world do they plan to have this operational by 2025?

 

[nfitz]

If six years is optimistic, how in the world do they plan to have this operational by 2025?

It's only an election promise - don't take it too seriously.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't understand the folks that want trains to cross the border. Why add a significant variable - the border - to operational reliability? Look how long Montreal Central's project to allow Adirondack to do border checks there is taking to complete.

As sceptical I am about HSR west of Toronto (and especially: west of London), I don't see much operational risks with crossing the border, provided that the service ends in Detroit: westbound, the US border checks could be performed upon arrival in Detroit, while eastbound, Canadian customs would be performed prior to boarding and departure with customers not cleared in time getting automatically bumped on the next train. For extending further beyond the boarder (e.g. beyond Detroit and Niagara Falls,NY), however, the operational issues you mentioned would certainly occur...

 

[steveintoronto]

I don't understand the folks that want trains to cross the border. Why add a significant variable - the border - to operational reliability? Look how long Montreal Central's project to allow Adirondack to do border checks there is taking to complete.

Just up at the Detroit Free Press:

Tresa Baldas , Detroit Free Press Published 7:21 p.m. ET May 21, 2017 | Updated 36 minutes ago
One expert recommends Ontario work with Michigan on plans for future expansion of the rail service to the U.S.

An ambitious high-speed rail plan that would get travelers from Windsor to Toronto in just two hours is gaining steam in Canada — and there's even talk about one day extending the line to Detroit.

According to the Ontario government, the province is going to spend $15 million to begin the process of building a high-speed rail line on which trains will move at speeds of up to 155 m.p.h. an hour between Windsor and Toronto. Requests for design bids are set to go out this fall.

Also on Freep.com:

Amid deluge of riders, QLINE announces free rides until July 1

Gallagher: Is QLINE the start of something much bigger?

Detroit QLINE gets its own hysterical 'Pure Michigan' spoof commercial

While the project is years away from becoming a reality, a transportation expert has recommended that Ontario work with Michigan on plans for future expansion of the rail service to the U.S. Trains would enter the country via Detroit through the existing rail tunnel that runs under the Detroit River west of downtown.

But that's potentially decades away.

For now, the goal is to get the multi-billion-dollar plan up and running in Canada by 2025. If successful, the train ride between Windsor and Toronto would get cut in half, from four hours to two.

Officials announced on Friday that they plan to spend $15 million on an environmental assessment — which is expected to take four years. Construction could start in five years, and if all goes as planned, the rail service could be running in eight years.

Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne called the high-speed rail a "game changer" that's going to deliver benefits to the 7 million people who live along the Windsor-Toronto corridor.

"High Speed rail will get them where they need to be faster," Wynne said in a statement. "Whether it means accepting a job that previously seemed too far away, visiting family more often or having ready access to the innovators who can take your business growth to the next level — high speed will make a real difference in people's lives and drive economic growth and jobs."

Friday's announcement coincided with the release of a feasibility report that was commissioned by the Ontario government in 2015.

According to the report, which was researched and written by David Collenette, Ontario's special adviser on high-speed rail, the project is expected to cost at least $20 billion. The plan is to first build a line connecting Toronto to London by 2025. The line extending to Windsor wouldn't be ready until 2031.

The report estimates that 10.6 million passengers will ride the trains by 2041 and take more than 5 million cars off southwestern Ontario’s highways.

The report recommends that the high-speed rail line include the following stations: Toronto Union Station, Pearson Airport, Guelph, Kitchener-Waterloo, London, Chatham and Windsor.

In addition to cutting down travel time, the high-speed rail will also help the environment. The report estimates that the rail will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by more than 7 million tons over a 60-year time frame.

The report has proposed two scenarios for the government to consider. One involves trains traveling at 300 kilometers an hour (186 m.p.h.) at a cost of $149 million per kilometer. The other involves trains traveling at 250 kilometers an hour (155 m.p.h.) at a cost of $55 million per kilometer.

The report recommends seeking private financing, in addition to tax dollars, to help pay for the project. Ontario officials, meanwhile, are establishing a new governing body to oversee the work required to design and implement the high-speed rail.

Contact Tresa Baldas: tbaldas@freepress.com. Follow her on Twitter @Tbaldas.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2017/05/21/windsor-high-speed-rail-line/335178001/

 

[robmausser]

I don't understand the folks that want trains to cross the border. Why add a significant variable - the border - to operational reliability? Look how long Montreal Central's project to allow Adirondack to do border checks there is taking to complete.

Heck I even think having a separate service from Via is too much of a variable.

Take the money that was going to this and partner with VIA to extend their dedicated tracks 125MPH electric HFR proposal to Windsor.

I realize its not true high speed, but it is still a huge improvement and we've been promised high speed rail for the better part of half a century. Lets just get something done in baby steps, and then we can upgrade it to higher speeds at a later date. You will also get more federal money commitment by doing this, as VIA is a federal crown corp.

Having a separate service from VIA is just going to complicate things.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

HSR EA is expected to take at least four years, which means construction couldn't begin until after the next election cycle. Wonderful

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Have the PCs commented at all on HSR?

 

[steveintoronto]

Having a separate service from VIA is just going to complicate things.

Have the PCs commented at all on HSR?

No, other than to lambaste it. The PCs haven't committed to any form of transit, let alone transportation altogether.

On an up note though, for HSR to happen, The Missing Link has to happen first. And that is something we can all appreciate.

 

[ssiguy2]

Dwell times on the high boarding HSR I took in Italy were about 3 minutes. Anything longer than 3 to 4 minutes is just a make-work project. If they decide to have stops in Guelph and/or Chatham then the whole idea should be scrapped all together.Tor-Lon makes sense but so would Windsor but only if an agreement can be reached between Ont/Can & Mich/USA were the cost of the connecting tunnel/bridge is shared and there is an easy and fast built-in Customs Centre at the Detroit station. Getting them on-board with an extension to Chicago would be a great benefit.

As for VIA bitching up a storm about HSR milking revenue and riders off their busy SWO Corridor, suck it up. VIA's inferior service and lousy reputation is well deserved and they can take credit for most of it. Yes they have been short-changed by Ottawa but VIA has also made conscious decisions to keep completely unnecessary routes open for political gain and because they were afraid to offend their Ottawa taskmasters. Instead of making decisions on sound economics they choose instead to go the easy route and just let sleeping dogs lie and the travellers be damned.

If there can be a owner & operator that will put The Corridor first then so be it. Outside of The Corridor, you could cancel all VIA rail service overnight and it the media didn't report it, 95% of the population wouldn't even notice and even fewer would care.

 

[steveintoronto]

VIA has also made conscious decisions to keep completely unnecessary routes open for political gain and because they were afraid to offend their Ottawa taskmasters. Instead of making decisions on sound economics they choose instead to go the easy route and just let sleeping dogs lie and the travellers be damned.

VIA aren't the ones to choose to run a route or cancel it. It's not their call, and "politics" isn't their call either.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2014-94/

 

[Urban Sky]

As for VIA bitching up a storm about HSR milking revenue and riders off their busy SWO Corridor, suck it up.

As far too often with your rants, I can't see them being backed up by any facts or can you find me any source where VIA has argued against the Ontario Liberals' HSR proposal in SWO?

Also, as for your continued rants against any passenger rail operations or investments outside the Corridor, you may want to look up what exactly happened 150 years ago and why this (your!) country celebrates it so enthusiastically this summer. You may ask a friend it you can't find a $10 bill in your wallet...

 

[steveintoronto]

where VIA has argued against the Ontario Liberals HSR proposal in SWO?

Indeed, VIA and anyone officially associated with them have offered no comments what-so-ever, at least in the public domain. Either pro or con. Radio silence is being strictly enforced.

Comment, if it is due, is for MPs and MPPs. What is conspicuous, even with mention of VIA (as well as GO) in the report, is how it would work in a *complementary* fashion, not a replacement one.