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mpd618 said:
Or maybe it's expectation management? They just got into office with a majority government, I don't know why they would even bother starting an EA if they're not serious about HSR.
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It's actually great politics. Starting a slow EA lets the government make claims about investing in HSR, without actually coming up with the billions of dollars HSR requires. And when the next government decides to not build the line, it's them who will be painted as the bad guys.

They could even use it as an excuse to back out of a commitment they did make within this term: All-day service to Kitchener. They could use the rationale that we don't want to build anything until we know what HSR is going to be.
 
diminutive said:
I don't see why we should be encouraging air travellers to switch modes hundreds of kms away from their final destination... That's just not efficient at all.
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Why do you think that? These kinds of connections are already being done in other countries. Getting onto a train that serves Pearson could be made just as convenient as changing planes if the connection is done right. Plus HSR passengers would be better served by transit once they're in Ottawa, in a more central location, closer to downtown. Plus emissions are lower, delays are fewer, and passengers are more comfortable.

lead82 said:
GO RER has not been built yet and until it is it makes no sense to siphon money into fancy HSR.
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There's no siphoning money; it's not a zero sum game. HSR isn't being done at the expense of RER, the two would benefit each other and share much of the same infrastructure. The same momentum is pushing both projects, along with all the other transit projects in the province. By the same token, cutting one would hurt the other.

crs1026 said:
This debate should be about ridership demand that we want, or can't avoid, rather than inventing fantasy markets to build a case for HSR. Why would we be happy if students (or workers) lived in Toronto and worked or studied in KW, so far away?
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It's not a fantasy market. Back in April I counted up all the GO, Greyhound, and VIA trips already going between Toronto, KW, and London. There are already between 128 and 158 buses and close to 20 trains every day between those 3 cities/services, counting both directions, depending on the day. Even by conservative estimates, most of the predicted 6 million annual HSR riders are taking trains and buses between the 3 cities already, today. And that's not even counting the people taking other bus services I didn't count, people who'd switch from driving and flying to rail, or induced demand. The market is there. People have been complaining loudly for years that it's far too difficult to travel between KW and Toronto. And that's hurting the competitiveness and growth potential of the industries that are increasingly becoming the basis of our economy.

diminutive said:
The fastest and cheapest way to travel between Pearson and Trudeau will almost always be flying.

Nobody will take a train from downtown Ottawa or Montreal to fly out of Pearson, so there's not much of a market there.
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Yes, they will take a train if the option exists. International experience has shown this. Flying between Toronto and Montreal isn't any faster than HSR would be. That distance is right in the sweet spot for HSR and customers have shown a clear preference for HSR over flying on similar routes all over the world, to the point where some routes have been all but abandoned by airlines.
 
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The issue isn't that there are bus riders, it's whether the price point for HSR will capture them, what proportion of them an hourly London-Toronto-Kingston set of services using off the shelf FRA equipment would capture at 100-125mph for a LOT less money invested in track, PTC signalling and vehicles, and how many more will be carried because service could be rolled out in far fewer years.
 
Haljackey said:
HSR plan from London-Toronto was a rushed provincial election promise:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...-study-was-rushed-ahead-of-election-1.2866591
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No doubt. Spending equally on transit in GTA and outside GTA is challenging (not much outside GTA has decent use-cases).

That said, despite the idea being rushed, the advantages outlined in the document appear to be real and definitely worth further investigation (EA).

From the article:
Based on his information, Schabas writes that "overall, this looks to be an unusually easy route for a high-speed rail line, about as easy as you can get, in fact, both in terms of construction, and community and environmental impacts."
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This is exactly how Ford Nation got its support - "....concrete proof that "lefty" politicians are content to spend money, without diligence, just to buy votes.....because what's the worst that could happen? If it costs too much, just go back to the taxpayer and get more money!"

This route needs investment in passenger rail, but this is not how to build support for it. I'm disappointed to think that the merits will be tainted by the vote-buying optics.

- Paul
 
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TOareaFan said:
$115k for 2 weeks of work on google earth....if that is the going rate there are folks on UT that will be billionaires soon!
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It's not paid to one person. Consider a team of dozen people working overtime for 2 weeks looking at different segments of Google Earth (possibly enterprise enhanced apps, hydro databases, property line integration with an Enterprise Google Earth package, etc) at zoomed-in-levels for hundreds of kilometers, property by property, just a mere half of $115K falls well within common sub-100K-annual salary levels for employees of a company of this league, leaving roughly half as company profit margin, and a leftover ten percent of the total to a typical manager salary. That's about $35K to a dozen employees, or about $3K gross before-tax pay for 2 weeks (some paid less, some paid more), decent but not shocking, quite close to typical salaries for this type of work for lower-to-mid level people plus a couple of higher-level, and a manager (which might take ~$10K of this), and the remainder (~$50K) as company bottom line/profit.

Agred it is a bit expensive for a Google Earth study, but rush work can cost several hundreds of dollars an hour (since a team of employees is involved), times the number of hours of work, especially since they still needed to get some staff out. FCP is an organization that has done work for other high speed rail studies, so their work seems to command a premium.

Yes, a bit expensive, and a bit politically timed, but the study price is rather good for a last minute rush study by a railroad-experienced study organization, even when using Google Earth as a GIS assist... The study itself, assuming proper due diligience was done, seems realistically priced if you are recruiting a study organization that has studied other high speed rail routes successfully, and know histories of successes/failures in other rail construction, and knows how to apply such knowledge for accurate figures that saves millions of dollars down the road, or reduces future construction cost overruns...

Not saying the funds were wasted (or not) that's a matter of political discussion (porkbarrel politics), but depending on details, the last-minute study pricing doesn't necessarily seem out of line for this league, based on history.
 
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mdrejhon said:
It's not paid to one person. Consider a team of dozen people working overtime for 2 weeks looking at different segments of Google Earth (possibly enterprise enhanced apps, hydro databases, property line integration with an Enterprise Google Earth package, etc) at zoomed-in-levels for hundreds of kilometers, property by property, just a mere half of $115K falls well within common sub-100K-annual salary levels for employees of a company of this league, leaving roughly half as company profit margin, and a leftover ten percent of the total to a typical manager salary. That's about $35K to a dozen employees, or about $3K gross before-tax pay for 2 weeks (some paid less, some paid more), decent but not shocking, quite close to typical salaries for this type of work for lower-to-mid level people plus a couple of higher-level, and a manager (which might take ~$10K of this), and the remainder (~$50K) as company bottom line/profit.

Agred it is a bit expensive for a Google Earth study, but rush work can cost several hundreds of dollars an hour (since a team of employees is involved), times the number of hours of work, especially since they still needed to get some staff out. FCP is an organization that has done work for other high speed rail studies, so their work seems to command a premium.

Yes, a bit expensive, and a bit politically timed, but the study price is rather good for a last minute rush study by a railroad-experienced study organization, even when using Google Earth as a GIS assist... The study itself, assuming proper due diligience was done, seems realistically priced if you are recruiting a study organization that has studied other high speed rail routes successfully, and know histories of successes/failures in other rail construction, and knows how to apply such knowledge for accurate figures that saves millions of dollars down the road, or reduces future construction cost overruns...

Not saying the funds were wasted (or not) that's a matter of political discussion (porkbarrel politics), but depending on details, the last-minute study pricing doesn't necessarily seem out of line for this league, based on history.
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If it is political, used to help with an election campaign, then obviously it was paid by the Liberal Party and not the taxpayer. Who cares how much they spent.
 
I've always been suspect of a new HSR line to London especially thru Kitchener. The reality is that using the current corridor. With track upgrades, faster trains, more grade separation/overpasses, express non-stop service, and select urban by-passes, the current corridor could get Londoners to downtown Toronto in nearly as fast a time at a fraction of the cost and much less construction time.

The link to Pearson would be missed but not by the vast majority. London's airport already has national and international service being served by Air Canada, WestJet, SunWing, United, and Air Transat. Those coming in from Windsor rarely use Pearson but fly cheaper out of Detroit.
 
mdrejhon said:
It's not paid to one person. Consider a team of dozen people working overtime for 2 weeks looking at different segments of Google Earth (possibly enterprise enhanced apps, hydro databases, property line integration with an Enterprise Google Earth package, etc) at zoomed-in-levels for hundreds of kilometers, property by property, just a mere half of $115K falls well within common sub-100K-annual salary levels for employees of a company of this league, leaving roughly half as company profit margin, and a leftover ten percent of the total to a typical manager salary. That's about $35K to a dozen employees, or about $3K gross before-tax pay for 2 weeks (some paid less, some paid more), decent but not shocking, quite close to typical salaries for this type of work for lower-to-mid level people plus a couple of higher-level, and a manager (which might take ~$10K of this), and the remainder (~$50K) as company bottom line/profit.

Agred it is a bit expensive for a Google Earth study, but rush work can cost several hundreds of dollars an hour (since a team of employees is involved), times the number of hours of work, especially since they still needed to get some staff out. FCP is an organization that has done work for other high speed rail studies, so their work seems to command a premium.

Yes, a bit expensive, and a bit politically timed, but the study price is rather good for a last minute rush study by a railroad-experienced study organization, even when using Google Earth as a GIS assist... The study itself, assuming proper due diligience was done, seems realistically priced if you are recruiting a study organization that has studied other high speed rail routes successfully, and know histories of successes/failures in other rail construction, and knows how to apply such knowledge for accurate figures that saves millions of dollars down the road, or reduces future construction cost overruns...

Not saying the funds were wasted (or not) that's a matter of political discussion (porkbarrel politics), but depending on details, the last-minute study pricing doesn't necessarily seem out of line for this league, based on history.
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As I was joking (more about me and my fellow posters here than anything else) that is way more detail than I expected.

BurlOak said:
If it is political, used to help with an election campaign, then obviously it was paid by the Liberal Party and not the taxpayer. Who cares how much they spent.
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You expect that a party that spent over a billion dollars of taxpayer money on one vote getting move to cancel gas plants to feel bad about spending $115k on another vote getting move? Really?
 
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