[MisterF]

And that business case was diluted because they went to London. If this line just went from Toronto to Kitchener, the costs would be lower and BCR substantially higher.

True. The report doesn't tell us what the BCR is for just the Kitchener-Toronto portion, but since travel drops off considerably west of Kitchener I'd say you're right. A 250 km/h train to Kitchener alone would be a slam dunk.

Education and employment is 2 distinct clusters. However, if you track the students/employees, a large number live between those 2 clusters and inevitably spend their salary on shops/housing between those 2 clusters.

Based on the spread of economic benefits, particularly the middle/upper management that rotates between the KW and Toronto offices, I'd argue it's a corridor.

A corridor with the country's busiest airport right in the middle of it, no less.

It can't be a real corridor like the Sillicon Valley because the greenbelt is in the way. Why not rezone the strip of land ~2 km on either side of the 401 between Pearson and Kitchener to be commercial / industrial office park use, the cheap land costs coupled with HSR and easy access to downtown Toronto, UW and Pearson it could be a real winner.

Because that wouldn't accomplish anything.Whether there's continuous development between Toronto and Kitchener is irrelevant to the strength of the links between them. The fact is that there's far more travel demand between the two cities (and the airport) than existing infrastructure can handle. And HSR would play a major role in allowing the sectors in both cities to reach their potential and strengthen the synergies between them.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think I am being nitpicky at all....there is a real difference between a corridor of common activity and two clusters of common activity separated by 100km of difference......and I think there is a difference in how you would connect them.

Okay.

But I still don't see the relevance to this talking point. None of this negates the fact that a fast, reliable connection is needed between KW, Pearson and downtown Toronto.

 

[kEiThZ]

Also, let's all not forget. The pre-requisite for this is RER works and probably electrification on the Kitchener Corridor. So the idea that money is being diverted from other transit priorities is patently ridiculous.

 

[TOareaFan]

Also, let's all not forget. The pre-requisite for this is RER works and probably electrification on the Kitchener Corridor. So they idea that money is being diverted from other transit priorities is patently ridiculous.

You’d have to show me where in this discussion I said it was?

 

[TOareaFan]

Okay.

But I still don't see the relevance to this talking point. None of this negates the fact that a fast, reliable connection is needed between KW, Pearson and downtown Toronto.

How fast may be debatable

But you are right in one regard that whether it is a corridor or two wide apart clusters you still need to connect them.......but I think deciding which definition it fits goes a long way to forming the decision on the service levels.....particularly as it concerns the communities in between the two end points.

 

[jamincan]

You’d have to show me where in this discussion I said it was?

You're not the only person in this thread...

Or we could take the large sums of money that HSR would cost and actually benefit Ontarians through tax breaks, dealing with hydro costs, or actually investing in a Relief Line that would serve more people per week than HSR would a year.

 

[steveintoronto]

Instead of looking at this as a "tech corridor"...it is what it is...a *transportation corridor*. And on that basis the demand, whether electrified RER or something more exotic (at multiples the price for questionable benefit at this time), it's the RoW that's needed, common for both. Instead of waiting endlessly for CN, CP, QP and the Feds to get their shid together on doing the Bypass, it's time to consider establishing a RoW to satisfy both needs, and that at this point is to bypass Brampton to Georgetown, ostensibly via Pearson, and to run RER initially to K-W *until such time as the rest of the proposed HSR is built*. Forward compatible.

What a concept...too bad it doesn't exist in the Ontario Political Lingo dictionary.

 

[lead82]

I think one thing most of us can agree on is that we need better rail service in SWO. The difference of opinions is whether HSR makes sense or if it makes more sense to invest the money in better conventional rail first to build up the network and provide better service throughout. What good is HSR if it’s extremely expsensive to ride and there is no transit to resolve the last mile problem. Would it not be better to use that same money to upgrade existing service and expand it further with feeder lines to smaller towns and build up the network. This is what I mean by we are not Europe. No European country decided to build HSR without first having a dense conventional rail network. HSR is express but it needs the base feeder system to work properly.

To me the problem we have in Ontario is we like to spend big sums of transit dollars (this is inter-city transit IMHO) but get very little value. We build expensive infrastructure where it’s not needed but neglect to build it where it is desperately required.

A few examples:
-DRL - badly needed but likely decades away from being built (if ever). Instead we keep making extensions and overloading existing system with no relief in sight for the core city.
-Spadina extension - opening in less than 2 months. Large beautiful stations that will be the least used stations in the system for decades to come except maybe York U.
-Sheppard line - large beautiful stations that are empty except for the terminals. An LRT system could have been much larger and had much higher ridership
-Scarborough subway extension- one stop boondoggle for $3B+ to basically remove a transfer but offer no new network expansion or connections. LRT would have been cheaper, gone further and had much higher ridership and helped more people in Scarborough get around faster.
-UPX - a fancy train that was empty until prices were severely lowered with subsidies. It could have been the first electric RER line and be part of regular GO network.
-HSR - another expensive fairy tale with limited stops. Sure it may have some benefits for the few but we could spend the same money greatly improving rail service throughout SWO with HFR like VIA is actually proposing.

Sensible investments are punted in favour of political showmanship. Our tax dollars are wasted over and over again. This is my personal frustration. We could have had a much denser rail network both with GO and inter-city trains if the politicians actually cared about doing the most good for least amount of dollars. Expanding ROWs, building the CN/CP bypass and expanding transit in smaller towns with land use to build a base. This is how ridership is built. Building an express fancy train without the conventional feeder network is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

I think one thing most of us can agree on is that we need better rail service in SWO. The difference of opinions is whether HSR makes sense or if it makes more sense to invest the money in better conventional rail first to build up the network and provide better service throughout. What good is HSR if it’s extremely expsensive to ride and there is no transit to resolve the last mile problem. Would it not be better to use that same money to upgrade existing service and expand it further with feeder lines to smaller towns and build up the network. This is what I mean by we are not Europe. No European country decided to build HSR without first having a dense conventional rail network. HSR is express but it needs the base feeder system to work properly.

In the UK there is an extensive schedule of Stopping (all stops)/Semi-stopping (skip a few stops)/Semi-express (skip more than a few stops)/Express (more like point a to point b) rail service on many lines using the same railway right-of-way. They do this by having a set of tracks dedicated to Express/Semi-express service and one for Stopping/Semi-Stopping. A typical rail ROW where this occurs in the UK is 4 tracks wide and 100% grade separated. The ROW from Georgetown to Union is suitable for the 4 track arrangement. West of Georgetown twinning the tracks would be enough to support both RER and HSR as long as Acton GO is widened to 3 or 4 tracks.

Sensible investments are punted in favour of political showmanship. Our tax dollars are wasted over and over again. This is my personal frustration. We could have had a much denser rail network both with GO and inter-city trains if the politicians actually cared about doing the most good for least amount of dollars. Expanding ROWs, building the CN/CP bypass and expanding transit in smaller towns with land use to build a base. This is how ridership is built. Building an express fancy train without the conventional feeder network is putting the cart before the horse.

Kitchener Line RER and Toronto-London HSR can both be constructed together simultaneously which overall would save money from the construction of both projects.

For some context to my first point to the UK ROW track arrangement that I'm familiar with is:

Express Express Stopping Stopping

but another way to arrange the track in the right of way is:

Stopping Express Express Stopping

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Not too much progress, but progress nonetheless. Glad to see EA work starting.

High speed rail markings spark concerns for rural residents

 

[Allandale25]

Further article on this topic:

Tory Leader Patrick Brown says high speed rail ‘would be great for Southwestern Ontario’

And tweets by a local Councillor commenting on the article:

 

[steveintoronto]

Further article on this topic:

Excellent 'heads up'.
"Brown hasn't always been so eager to back high speed rail. A few months ago during a visit to St. Thomas, he skirted the question about his party's plans for the project, instead slamming the Liberal government for using high speed rail as an election ploy."

It's a bit unnerving, He's now saying and apparently doing the right things, but I can't help but feel it's a Trojan Horse.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Excellent 'heads up'.
"Brown hasn't always been so eager to back high speed rail. A few months ago during a visit to St. Thomas, he skirted the question about his party's plans for the project, instead slamming the Liberal government for using high speed rail as an election ploy."

It's a bit unnerving, He's now saying and apparently doing the right things, but I can't help but feel it's a Trojan Horse.

this whole project is one gigantic trogan horse. No party intends to actually build the thing.

 

[steveintoronto]

this whole project is one gigantic trogan horse. No party intends to actually build the thing.

Absolutely, which makes the Horse far more apparent. If he had any kind of critical thinking, he's point out to the Plebes that "We agree with aspects of this, just not the aiming so high as the 'High Speed' aspect. We pledge to work with VIA to join forces to deliver an *affordable* and *higher speed* service that fits into a much wider regional service including to Montreal and hopefully Quebec City. That may entail establishing new Rights of Way in some instances to get around present bottlenecks."

Now *that* would/could be believable, and get the Grits off their sorry arses to respond. But of course, Brown is incapable of extolling what's do-able and dynamic, and mimes mantras that aren't his to begin with.

 

[Allandale25]

Looks like the Councillor has heard from the PCs and is more happy: https://twitter.com/kellyelliottmcm/status/936351645126025218