[christiesplits]

I think we need to consider the political chess at play with this announcement. No one expects this to ever see the light of day. I suspect there's three motives:

1. Lead the policy debate by arguing you're the government of "yes," while the opposition are the parties of "no"
2. Excite his donor base (road builders, gravel industry, LIUNA, etc.) to make sure they pull out the cheque book for the incoming election
3. Sidetrack the media with silly proposals so that they don't talk about the Greenbelt, housing prices of hospital wait times

 

[innsertnamehere]

It would be smarter to extend the Finch LRT east to Scarborough and on to Oshawa. There needs to be almost two types, short and medium distance. Express from Humber to Finch w, to.Finch to Don mills, as well as local. This could be accomplished by building sidings at stations.

Need to make transit more convenient. And it has to be faster than the bus today.

The problem with the 401 is that it's not directional depending on the day. Sometimes reverse commuting is actually worse.

The finch LRT as currently built would take 3 hours to get from it's current terminus to Downtown Oshawa.

That's not a practical application.

The only real possibility would be some sort of GO RER service, and even then it has heavy limitations of potential.

 

[sixrings]

I think we need to consider the political chess at play with this announcement. No one expects this to ever see the light of day. I suspect there's three motives:

1. Lead the policy debate by arguing you're the government of "yes," while the opposition are the parties of "no"
2. Excite his donor base (road builders, gravel industry, LIUNA, etc.) to make sure they pull out the cheque book for the incoming election
3. Sidetrack the media with silly proposals so that they don't talk about the Greenbelt, housing prices of hospital wait times

This is exactly it. When wild things like this come out it isn’t because the politician is actually that dumb. It’s that they have other intentions.

 

[Bojaxs]

But this is the kind of service we need to offset traffic on the 401.

Couldn't they not do something similar to the Eurostar where the trucks roll on and roll off? The drivers can go along for the Ride or pass it on at the other end.

I can take a 53" shipping container off a truck driver's chassis and place it on a train in Brampton. Once in Montreal another crane operator can pluck that same container off the train and place it on another truck driver's chassis who can then drive it for the "last mile" to their customer. Not to mention we can double stack containers in railcars. If I understand @IRT_BMT_IND correctly, you're suggesting the railroad industry revert back to picking up truck trailers (wheels and all) and putting them in railcars. That's old tech that's been replaced by shipping containers. No wonder CPKC ended it. It wouldn't speed up the process one bit and would make shipping via train more expensive. CPKC and CN have no desire to go back to this method of shipping.

European freight trains can't double stack containers like North American, class 1, freight trains can. A train "bottomed out" breaks even. Once I've bottomed out a train, every railcar I double stack a container is pure profit for CN. Since Europe can't double stack containers, they'll continue to load trailers. Makes no difference.

 

[rbt]

Taking CN trains off the Kitchener line via "The Missing Link/ 407 freight rail bypass" would go a long way to reducing cars on the 401. With no freight trains to get in the way, GO & VIA could increase frequency. VIA can run faster trains to & from London.

I expect that's exactly what will happen. After this report comes back with a $60B value for like 100,000 cars per day capacity the government at that time (Ford or not) will put forward a transit option of $10B for like 75,000 people/day. I don't think this is Ford's current intention, but most politicians are good at spin and selling a $10B project as a cost savings is too good to resist.

It's the triple cheese-burger option on the menu. Very few order it, but it makes them feel a lot better about getting the double-cheeseburger when it's not the largest option available. Sales of the double tank when the triple isn't on the menu.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

I can take a 53" shipping container off a truck driver's chassis and place it on a train in Brampton. Once in Montreal another crane operator can pluck that same container off the train and place it on a truck driver's chassis who can then drive it for the "last mile" to their customer. Not to mention we can double stack containers in railcars. If I understand @IRT_BMT_IND correctly, you're suggesting the railroad industry revert back to picking up truck trailers (wheels and all) and putting them in railcars. That's old tech that's been replaced by shipping containers. No wonder CPKC ended it. It wouldn't speed up the process one bit and would make shipping via train more expensive. CPKC and CN have no desire to go back to this method of shipping.

European freight trains can't double stack containers like North American, class 1, freight trains can. A train "bottomed out" breaks even. Once I've bottomed out a train, every railcar I double stack a container is pure profit for CN. Since Europe can't double stack containers, they'll continue to load trailers. Makes no difference.

Piggyback is still hanging on in the US (though I'm not sure all the class 1's still offer it anymore) but is in pretty steep decline there too. UPS and FedEx (and indirectly the USPS which contracts these companies) were/are major piggyback customers, if anything the huge 00s Amazon prime driven ecommerce boom in the US and the resulting demand for cheap but not necessarily airfreight level fast parcel shipping helped keep these services alive. To me piggyback trains are iconic of 70s/80s railroading (especially huge trains of all trailers - Rapido Trains even made model truck trailers with Canadian liveries like Reimer and Canada Cartage from that era).

 

[afransen]

This would be interesting if the idea was to bury the 401 and build affordable/public housing on the freed-up land above with transit baked into the plan to create transit-oriented development across 55km across Toronto. Would eliminate a major blight and could re-calibrate the corridor towards a more sustainable path. Bonus points because Doug can still get his construction cronies and developer cronies paid so he can avoid the mob taking him out after the greenbelt fiasco.

It would still be insane when compared to the alternative to take the tens of billions of dollars and use it to start a bunch of coops, etc.

 

[afransen]

I think we need to consider the political chess at play with this announcement. No one expects this to ever see the light of day. I suspect there's three motives:

1. Lead the policy debate by arguing you're the government of "yes," while the opposition are the parties of "no"
2. Excite his donor base (road builders, gravel industry, LIUNA, etc.) to make sure they pull out the cheque book for the incoming election
3. Sidetrack the media with silly proposals so that they don't talk about the Greenbelt, housing prices of hospital wait times

Better to be branded as stupid than corrupt.

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps the whole thing will morph into the decision to extend the Sheppard subway both east and west. Further west than Dufferin, and further east than McCowan. That could take some cars out of the 401, while reducing the travel times for the existing transit riders.

The subway could use the 401 corridor for some of the outer sections.

 

[lenaitch]

Most of the trucks on the 401 are "last mile" trucks, typically going between warehouses, cross dock facilities and container yards. CN & CPKC have done a lot to take Toronto - Montreal trucks off the 401. But if you have to drop off a load at Coburg, you're going to truck it, cause the freight train won't stop there.

Given the massive volume of trucks on the 401 between Toronto and Windsor and Toronto and Montreal, I have a hard time time believing they are 'last mile' runs to and from the towns and cities along the way. I grew up with a guy who did Toronto-Montreal and back every week night.

I wouldn't be surprised if this "401 tunnel" actually runs on the Finch Hydro corridor. It could allow a decent chunk of cut-and-cover construction, especially through the flatter parts in Scarborough, and would simplify interchange construction as you don't have to make expensive tie-ins to the existing 401 interchanges.

Regardless of this project's fantastical chances, the engineering study will be interesting at the very least.

That would be significantly disruptive since all of the circuits would have to be relocated (along with the Richview TS if that's where it would re-join the 401) and pipelines follow a lot of the corridor.

 

[darth_freeman]

So many pessimists on here. I wonder how it would compare to this 7 year old tunnel proposal https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-tunnel-proposal-2017

Out of curiosity, what type of transit would users here rather spend $50B on? Based on CAHSR prices, that would get about 1/3 the distance of Toronto to Montreal done.

 

[ericmacm]

I expect that's exactly what will happen. After this report comes back with a $60B value for like 100,000 cars per day capacity the government at that time (Ford or not) will put forward a transit option of $10B for like 75,000 people/day. I don't think this is Ford's current intention, but most politicians are good at spin and selling a $10B project as a cost savings is too good to resist.

It's the triple cheese-burger option on the menu. Very few order it, but it makes them feel a lot better about getting the double-cheeseburger when it's not the largest option available. Sales of the double tank when the triple isn't on the menu.

I think you're right on the money here with this logic. The presentation of the incredibly outrageously expensive option as "Doug Ford's preferred solution" will make a bunch of other smaller (but still very expensive) projects or alternatives seem much more palatable to both politicians and the general public, whether intentional or not. The 401 is ultimately a very complicated problem that requires projects in both the rail and road spaces to alleviate. Fortunately, we have a few in the pipeline already that might help. I see the following projects (either proposed or fictional/potential) all in conjunction being able to help ease the 401 to varying degrees. Combined, this could likely cost more than the tunnel, but would be better for the overall transportation network in the long-term due to redundancy:

• Line 4 Sheppard East/West Extensions to Downsview/Scarborough - provides a parallel east-west transit redundancy alongside the 401 from Allen Road to McCowan Road.
• Line 5 Eglinton West/North Extensions to Mississauga City Centre and Pearson - would provide an additional east-west transit redundancy alongside the 401 from Hurontario into the rest of Line 5, as well as allowing greater use of transit for airport traffic.
• Line 6 Finch South Extension to Pearson - would connect Pearson to the existing Line 6 alignment, which itself would tie into the extended Line 4.
• Midtown GO Corridor - is kind of far away from the 401, but it would provide a much faster through option to make east-west travel on GO faster. Would likely be one of the most effective if improved with a similar scope to OnCorr.
• The Missing Link - goes in conjunction with the Midtown GO corridor, would allow some more freight to be shipped by rail due to improved routing, and would subsequently free up the Midtown corridor for east-west trains.
• Highway 413 - would be able to divert some vehicle traffic away from the crucial chokepoints at the 401/427 and 401/400, especially for travel going north from the western GTA.
• Bradford Bypass - similar to the 413 but to a lesser extent, would be able to provide an alternative route toward the 400 for travel going north from the eastern GTA. Still would result in heavy traffic direction toward 401/404 though.
• Buy Out Segments of the 407 - purchasing out some segments of the 407 ETR lease and incorporating it into the provincial 407 tolling scheme (which is cheaper), allowing for some additional diversion from the 401.

The key seems to be redundancy; such as making east-west rail and transit travel through the GTA more palatable, as well as diverting traffic from some of the big chokepoints on the 401.

 

[drum118]

Dream the impossible Dream of having a highway underground for non Toronto Traffic with 6 exits/entrance that will support 6 lanes of traffic and a high speed rail line.

It will have to be deep to deal with creeks/rivers and valleys

There can be a fair number of stations to service the high speed rail line

Dream the impossible Dream of MTO of having an elevated RT line down the centre of the 401 that they looked at about 20 years ago

Election is around the corner and time to come up with some pipeline visions that will go no where when the election is over.

Wake me up when this dream is over as I need some more sleep

 

[MisterF]

I wonder how they build road tunnels in other places with all these issues you have listed.

Most road tunnels are built out of geographic necessity. They cross mountains or waterways or city cores. The 401 corridor has none of these things. Not to mention that there are no road tunnels of this length anywhere in the world. Not even close.

I wouldn't waste much energy on this. The idea is absurd and the costs will reflect that. It's not going to happen. I could see maybe decking the 401. That would be expensive and disruptive enough, but not nearly so much as tunnelling.

The idea of decking the 401 has been mentioned a few times in this thread. That idea has some big problems. For one, it wouldn't solve any congestion issues. If anything it would make them worse. If there's one lesson we should have learned from the growth of the 401, it's that no matter how many lanes we build they will always fill up and be congested. And all those new cars would put even more stress on the roads that access the highway. The most congested parts of any arterial road is close to the 401 and other highways. That would get even worse if new lanes are added on top of the existing highway.

But all of this is moot as one could just buy back the 407 and remove the tolls to drastically (in the medium-term) relieve pressure on the 401. When I read about this this morning I recalled that a Qatari delegation is in town so I wondered if that has Ford dreaming about easy money for bizarre projects!

Here's the thing with the 407 - the reason it's so free flowing is because it's so expensive. If we remove tolls it will be just as jammed as the 401. The expressions "be careful what you wish for" and "you get what you pay for" come to mind.

This would be interesting if the idea was to bury the 401 and build affordable/public housing on the freed-up land above with transit baked into the plan to create transit-oriented development across 55km across Toronto. Would eliminate a major blight and could re-calibrate the corridor towards a more sustainable path. Bonus points because Doug can still get his construction cronies and developer cronies paid so he can avoid the mob taking him out after the greenbelt fiasco.

Burying the 401 through Toronto, complete with dozens of interchanges, would be monstrously expensive and way more complex than what Doug Ford is proposing. It would easily cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

So many pessimists on here. I wonder how it would compare to this 7 year old tunnel proposal https://dailyhive.com/toronto/toronto-tunnel-proposal-2017

Out of curiosity, what type of transit would users here rather spend $50B on? Based on CAHSR prices, that would get about 1/3 the distance of Toronto to Montreal done.

High speed rail doesn't need to cost what it's costing in California. At the estimates that have been discussed for HSR in Canada, you could do the entire Windsor-Quebec Corridor for less than Ford's tunnel would cost. Or you could build multiple new subway lines. Or build the missing link and expand electrified regional rail to every significant population centre in Southern Ontario. Or some combination of the three.

 

[Sunnyside]

I think you're right on the money here with this logic. The presentation of the incredibly outrageously expensive option as "Doug Ford's preferred solution" will make a bunch of other smaller (but still very expensive) projects or alternatives seem much more palatable to both politicians and the general public, whether intentional or not. The 401 is ultimately a very complicated problem that requires projects in both the rail and road spaces to alleviate. Fortunately, we have a few in the pipeline already that might help. I see the following projects (either proposed or fictional/potential) all in conjunction being able to help ease the 401 to varying degrees. Combined, this could likely cost more than the tunnel, but would be better for the overall transportation network in the long-term due to redundancy:

• Line 4 Sheppard East/West Extensions to Downsview/Scarborough - provides a parallel east-west transit redundancy alongside the 401 from Allen Road to McCowan Road.
• Line 5 Eglinton West/North Extensions to Mississauga City Centre and Pearson - would provide an additional east-west transit redundancy alongside the 401 from Hurontario into the rest of Line 5, as well as allowing greater use of transit for airport traffic.
• Line 6 Finch South Extension to Pearson - would connect Pearson to the existing Line 6 alignment, which itself would tie into the extended Line 4.
• Midtown GO Corridor - is kind of far away from the 401, but it would provide a much faster through option to make east-west travel on GO faster. Would likely be one of the most effective if improved with a similar scope to OnCorr.
• The Missing Link - goes in conjunction with the Midtown GO corridor, would allow some more freight to be shipped by rail due to improved routing, and would subsequently free up the Midtown corridor for east-west trains.
• Highway 413 - would be able to divert some vehicle traffic away from the crucial chokepoints at the 401/427 and 401/400, especially for travel going north from the western GTA.
• Bradford Bypass - similar to the 413 but to a lesser extent, would be able to provide an alternative route toward the 400 for travel going north from the eastern GTA. Still would result in heavy traffic direction toward 401/404 though.
• Buy Out Segments of the 407 - purchasing out some segments of the 407 ETR lease and incorporating it into the provincial 407 tolling scheme (which is cheaper), allowing for some additional diversion from the 401.

The key seems to be redundancy; such as making east-west rail and transit travel through the GTA more palatable, as well as diverting traffic from some of the big chokepoints on the 401.

Much better, imo, is the 403/407 rail line proposed in the GGH Transportation Plan, which Metrolinx will be incorporating into the 2051 RTP. So it is gaining teeth, albeit baby teeth.

Considering how this is the brainchild of the Ford Government anyhow, it might actually be the true aim- selling the public on building that ASAP before other projects. Which I don’t necessarily think is a bad idea, depending on what we trade off or defer.