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This is fucking stupid. Why are they doing this?

That was my face when I switched on Power and Politics an hour ago.

This is the same rubbish as when we bought shares in GM. Sinking ships sink for a reason and I don't want any part in keeping them afloat.

That $4.5B could have gone a long way to starting to take mental health issues seriously, for example. But nooooo, we'd rather spend it on exporting raw sludge without adding any value to it to keep alive an industry that is both uncompetitive and unecological. It's ok, I'll still go to work tomorrow and hand over my fair share to help bankroll this waste of my sweat, don't you worry.

Man, that money could have went to retraining oil patch workers so they could do something that doesn't have among the highest costs in the world.

Maybe the profits will go to subsidising beer Canada-wide so the buck-a-beer party Ford dreams of can go big.

Honestly, this is one of those "so why do I pay taxes?" situations.
 
Remember that this $4.5B does not built a single kilometre of pipeline - it just buys the existing 50 years one.
The construction of the new pipeline will cost an other $7.5B.
 
Remember that this $4.5B does not built a single kilometre of pipeline - it just buys the existing 50 years one.
The construction of the new pipeline will cost an other $7.5B.
Only if it’s built, which is hardly a done deal.
 
Remember that this $4.5B does not built a single kilometre of pipeline - it just buys the existing 50 years one.
The construction of the new pipeline will cost an other $7.5B.

To be honest, I was so gobsmacked that I initially didn't even register this. My brain circuitry short-circuited and got stuck in "Oh no they didn't" loop. It happens.

This is even better. Loan guarantees to Kinder Morgan to continue work til the gov takes over in August. The fact they paid about $1.2B more than it's currently worth. Then paying to build it. Then trying to offload it.....or not. Then openly musing about having the option to buy it back under certain conditions in the future. This and Morneau saying the gov is probably going to end up holding it "in the medium term" (which, obviously means nothing but sure as hell isn't a year or two).

Can I expect quarterly dividend cheques from profits? Never mind that, better question: will the anticipated profits cover the interest costs incurred on the money used to buy and build it?

This is weird....my sunny ways include camping and bumming on a beach, these guys use the term to describe corporate welfare.
 
To be honest, I was so gobsmacked that I initially didn't even register this. My brain circuitry short-circuited and got stuck in "Oh no they didn't" loop. It happens.

This is even better. Loan guarantees to Kinder Morgan to continue work til the gov takes over in August. The fact they paid about $1.2B more than it's currently worth. Then paying to build it. Then trying to offload it.....or not. Then openly musing about having the option to buy it back under certain conditions in the future. This and Morneau saying the gov is probably going to end up holding it "in the medium term" (which, obviously means nothing but sure as hell isn't a year or two).

Can I expect quarterly dividend cheques from profits? Never mind that, better question: will the anticipated profits cover the interest costs incurred on the money used to buy and build it?

This is weird....my sunny ways include camping and bumming on a beach, these guys use the term to describe corporate welfare.

There seems to be a lot of assumptions and just plain falsehoods being tossed around about this issue:

1. The feds, by not explicitly enforcing its decision to approve the pipeline created an environment where no private enterprise would ever risk its capital not knowing whether it could be constructed let alone operated.

2. The feds could have executed a variety of laws and actions, within its power to force BC to back down, this could include withholding transfer payments or levying a denial tax on BC. They refused to do so.

3. The feds paid market price for the pipeline and related assets. The difference in your estimate is the cumulative to date spend on the new pipeline, include hundreds of millions of dollars spent by KM required by the feds.

4. KML currently pays a dividend, chances are the existing profitable pipeline can if the government wants to.

5. The reason why nobody wants to build new refineries is
(a) that there are so many existing refineries already re-tooled for oil sands. They were intended for Venezuela, but thanks to socialism there Venezuela's industry has collapsed.
(b) new refineries are expensive and when the feds refuse to enforce the rule of law on projects they approve, nobody wants to invest in Canada.

6. Most realistic oil demand forecasts show a need for this pipeline for the next 25 years at least. That is sufficient to generate a return greater than the TSX for the last 5. The forecasts by the enviro-lobby and green radical are consistently wrong, after all Al gore once said there'd be no more snows on Kilimanjaro.

7. Pipeline abandonment are fairly easy and have negligible environmental impact. The pipeline is purged of product with nitrogen and sealed, it remains in the ground just like naturally occurring metals.

8. I believe in man-made climate change and its effects. Demanding Canada destroy the 1 remaining growth industry so that major polluters like China and India can continue to increase their pollution well into the 2020's is not how you save the planet.
 
8. I believe in man-made climate change and its effects. Demanding Canada destroy the 1 remaining growth industry so that major polluters like China and India can continue to increase their pollution well into the 2020's is not how you save the planet.
If Climate Change is real and critical - then the world is being completely irrational. Two options:
1) All countries need to participate in reductions of GHG (not just signing on to receive payments) , or
2) There is no threat from GHG and the entire exercise is a scare tactic to take wealth from developed countries.
 
If Climate Change is real and critical - then the world is being completely irrational. Two options:
1) All countries need to participate in reductions of GHG (not just signing on to receive payments) , or
2) There is no threat from GHG and the entire exercise is a scare tactic to take wealth from developed countries.

Maybe, but then again, the notion that decarbonising will necessarily take wealth away from rich countries is itself a bullshit scare tactic.
 
8. I believe in man-made climate change and its effects. Demanding Canada destroy the 1 remaining growth industry so that major polluters like China and India can continue to increase their pollution well into the 2020's is not how you save the planet.

Growth industry? It's the one remaning dead-end industry, if anything.
As for the second part, personally, if I'm surrounded by dickheads I don't start also acting like a dickhead but instead walk away and do my own thing within the parameters of what my own values, morals, and sensibilities are.
 
Growth industry? It's the one remaning dead-end industry, if anything.
As for the second part, personally, if I'm surrounded by dickheads I don't start also acting like a dickhead but instead walk away and do my own thing within the parameters of what my own values, morals, and sensibilities are.

The industry is definitely growing, not just by consumer demand (all time highs, almost 100 million bbls/d globally) but also in terms of growth domestically compared to 2016. All realistic demand/supply forecasts show it growing for the next 25 years.

In terms of the 2nd part, not really a realistic comparison. its a product people desperately want, Canada needs it for the next 25 years at least and I'd rather it be produced domestically, in the most environmentally sound manner, than it come from actual phalichead totalitarian dictatorships throughout the world.
 
The industry is definitely growing, not just by consumer demand (all time highs, almost 100 million bbls/d globally) but also in terms of growth domestically compared to 2016. All realistic demand/supply forecasts show it growing for the next 25 years.

And then what? I only said it was a dead-end industry, not that it wasn't growing.

In terms of the 2nd part, not really a realistic comparison. its a product people desperately want, Canada needs it for the next 25 years at least and I'd rather it be produced domestically, in the most environmentally sound manner, than it come from actual phalichead totalitarian dictatorships throughout the world.

I agree it is better to produce our own than to buy from autocracies. I hate autocracies. That doesn't mean you act in a way that is contrary to what can be seen as being ethically correct because "they're doing it".
 
And then what? I only said it was a dead-end industry, not that it wasn't growing.



I agree it is better to produce our own than to buy from autocracies. I hate autocracies. That doesn't mean you act in a way that is contrary to what can be seen as being ethically correct because "they're doing it".

I would imagine after 25 years a slow decline till renewables become economic. The nice thing about pipelines is they are fairly easy to decommission and retire, just purge the line of product and seel it and its good to go. No become environmental catastrophe.

I prefer this to shutting down our existing industry, eliminating growth but still hypocritically buying oil and oil products, which is what we do when we refuse to grow local industry. The demand doesn't disappear just because there is insufficient supply. We just get it from far worse countries. Hence the hypocrisy of many members of the radical enviro-lobby that are more than happy to drive, fly and continue to use oil and oil products while trying to shut them down.
 
I would imagine after 25 years a slow decline till renewables become economic. The nice thing about pipelines is they are fairly easy to decommission and retire, just purge the line of product and seel it and its good to go. No become environmental catastrophe.

I prefer this to shutting down our existing industry, eliminating growth but still hypocritically buying oil and oil products, which is what we do when we refuse to grow local industry. The demand doesn't disappear just because there is insufficient supply. We just get it from far worse countries. Hence the hypocrisy of many members of the radical enviro-lobby that are more than happy to drive, fly and continue to use oil and oil products while trying to shut them down.
Don't forget about how the majority of plastic is produced.

Those cheap toys found in the toy store? They're made from petroleum.

It would be great if more plastic is made from renewable resources. All those disposed preschool toys, dolls, and action figures from decades past last long enough for anthropologists tens of millennia from now to be able to study them in detail.
 
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*cross-posted to Justin Trudeau's Canada thread*

Just in time for Kinder-Morgan shareholders to approve swindling Canada out of 4.5B dollars.......... The Federal Court of Appeals has quashed the approval of Trans Mountain, delaying it indefinitely.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/bus...ottawas-approval-of-trans-mountain-expansion/

I am beyond exasperated by the nationalization of a loss, where profit would have been private.

The precedent this sets, unless overturned by the SCC will likely stifle any new pipelines for the foreseeable future, certainly any that would involve a shipping component.

I stated how this all could have been avoided while pleasing the folks in AB....sigh.
 
Maybe this will drag our complacent asses into the 21st century.

....just kidding....I'm not sure anything will at this point.
 

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