Admiral Beez
Superstar
Looking at the history of mental institutions in Ontario, in fairness it goes way further back than Rae.
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- Thread starter Admiral Beez
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SunriseChampion
Senior Member
For certain people, unfortunately, a single room is a necessity.
As for the rest, I mean there should be various type of shelter to serve various types of people.
As for throwing them out if they don't take proper care of their place, I would if I was running the place, but I'm not sure that's the most constructive action in that case; it's just the way I was brought up. Cause a scene? "Sort it out or we'll sort you out".
As for the rest, I mean there should be various type of shelter to serve various types of people.
As for throwing them out if they don't take proper care of their place, I would if I was running the place, but I'm not sure that's the most constructive action in that case; it's just the way I was brought up. Cause a scene? "Sort it out or we'll sort you out".
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Well they were terrible places way back when so they slowly shut them all down and now we've got a serious issue.
I suppose making them be better places instead of blowing it all up and forgetting about it (sort of akin to sweeping it under the rug) wasn't possible.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Still sounds far cheaper than a prison, and uniforms don't have to be issued either, or guns, etc, etc, etc...
It also makes it far easier to offer some of these people some form of employment when they have a a 'residence' and the modicums to conduct themselves in some regular fashion.
Some are complete losers, no-one denies that. But many are just people who've fallen down, and can't get up without a hand. It's a hand-up, not a hand-out.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
I know far more losers who are housed than those without. Which to me means that if those dicks get a home, everyone does.
NorthYorkEd
Active Member
My opinion isn't popular or well-liked, but I think it's closest to the truth.
The answer is you can't fix it. There are always going to be people who cannot (or will not) function in a "normal", conformist way. Whether due to mental illness, addiction, or personality traits such as antisocial behaviour, certain human beings will always end up cycled out of rotation and onto the streets.
What you can do is offer services and a leg up to those who want it. Or those who can reasonably be expected to benefit. Anyone who needs mental health services or addiction treatment should be able to get it. Anyone who needs a shelter bed should have one. Anyone who wants to apply for a job should be able to get help with procuring a temporary address and/or contact means, filling out applications, adequate clothing for interviews, etc. Those who don't want such things should be left to pursue their own path, wherever it leads. (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but some folks are just broken beyond repair, and there is nothing that can be done in any long-term or sustainable way.)
What you can't do is force people into treatment or shelters and pretend the issue is they just need cheap rent or "affordable" housing (whatever that means). If you gave every homeless person a free apartment, many of those units would end up neglected, damaged, or abandoned. If you gave them all a job, some wouldn't show up, or disappear after the first pay check. As others have already said, this is first and foremost a mental health issue. Even the best of intentions can dissipate into the fog of the mentally ill mind. Often, they simply can't get "there", even if it is in their best interest.
At some point, we need to accept the harsh truth that some people simply cannot be helped. In a way, it's similar to how we are perfectly ok with putting an animal out of it's misery to save it from suffering, yet insist our loved ones writhe in excruciating agony until the very end. We have to dispel with idealistic and naive notions about saving everyone and just let some of them go. Focus on those who have legitimately hit hard times and just need (and are seeking) that helping hand to get them back into the game.
The answer is you can't fix it. There are always going to be people who cannot (or will not) function in a "normal", conformist way. Whether due to mental illness, addiction, or personality traits such as antisocial behaviour, certain human beings will always end up cycled out of rotation and onto the streets.
What you can do is offer services and a leg up to those who want it. Or those who can reasonably be expected to benefit. Anyone who needs mental health services or addiction treatment should be able to get it. Anyone who needs a shelter bed should have one. Anyone who wants to apply for a job should be able to get help with procuring a temporary address and/or contact means, filling out applications, adequate clothing for interviews, etc. Those who don't want such things should be left to pursue their own path, wherever it leads. (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but some folks are just broken beyond repair, and there is nothing that can be done in any long-term or sustainable way.)
What you can't do is force people into treatment or shelters and pretend the issue is they just need cheap rent or "affordable" housing (whatever that means). If you gave every homeless person a free apartment, many of those units would end up neglected, damaged, or abandoned. If you gave them all a job, some wouldn't show up, or disappear after the first pay check. As others have already said, this is first and foremost a mental health issue. Even the best of intentions can dissipate into the fog of the mentally ill mind. Often, they simply can't get "there", even if it is in their best interest.
At some point, we need to accept the harsh truth that some people simply cannot be helped. In a way, it's similar to how we are perfectly ok with putting an animal out of it's misery to save it from suffering, yet insist our loved ones writhe in excruciating agony until the very end. We have to dispel with idealistic and naive notions about saving everyone and just let some of them go. Focus on those who have legitimately hit hard times and just need (and are seeking) that helping hand to get them back into the game.
Northern Light
Superstar
I think it can't said enough, however, that many of the homeless find themselves there because the the help they needed was NOT available at a time when they were willing and able to accept it.
Telling someone who is ready to battle their drug or alcohol addiction that out-patient help might be available in six months doesn't cut it; and in-patient help being all but non-existent (for free) is a further issue (some folks have to be out of the environment in which they find themselves in order to shed their ills).
Further, the notion that its as simple as providing treatment for a week or a month or two and then you're on your own is a further problem.
There is a need for on-going support and/or supportive housing, for some folks, for at least several months, sometimes longer.
For other forms of mental illness, the issues are quite similar in many cases.
While lack of funds for prescriptions may be an issue in some cases; as might the absence of proper housing (one could imagine a stiff drink sounding rather appealing if one was sleeping on the street on a cold night).
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Its an absolute truth that not everyone wants help; and that some, regrettably may be beyond any conventionally available help at this time.
But that can't be an excuse for inaction, or not trying.
Nor should we fail to note, that the cost of hostels alone is over $3,000 per cot, per month.
That completely ignores secondary healthcare, justice system and economic costs from letting someone fall so far.
A great deal of investment, even if superficially expensive, can be justified by the pay-off, even if it takes some time, and even if it doesn't work out, every time.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Help the mentally ill when they’re young and those in need before they’re homeless, and you’ll slow it down at least.
Tolis
New Member
Shelters are a poor solution to treating a symptom, not a solution to treating said symptom's cause. Forcing people into shelters doesn't solve the problem of homelessness nor the problem of poor mental health care.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
While I agree that there will always be a segment of the population that needs these services no matter what you do, I do feel resources could be better coordinated. The amount of money individuals who are chronically homeless use up is astronomical. It must literally run into the 7 figures for some individuals when you add up all the social services, healthcare, police, court and legal costs etc. Somehow I think we could achieve better outcomes maybe if a more wholistic approach that recognized the bigger picture was employed?
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Oh, to be in America (see link), not:
Activists Arrested for Feeding Homeless People at California Park
Activists Arrested for Feeding Homeless People at California Park
Hugh Jass
New Member
I have worked in addictions and mental health for over 22 years across three provinces. Although, I would agree most people who are homeless have a mental illness. Two points:
1) The mental health laws are very weak and people have a right to refuse treatment, thus people remain ill by choice. The threshold to be judged unfit to stand trial or to be unfit to make treatment decisions is extremely low
2) Most people whom are homeless who have a mental illness DO NOT HAVE A MAJOR MENTAL ILLNESS.
They are personality disordered- and there is little if any treatment for personality disorders. They also are the highest users of Emergency Dept
1) The mental health laws are very weak and people have a right to refuse treatment, thus people remain ill by choice. The threshold to be judged unfit to stand trial or to be unfit to make treatment decisions is extremely low
2) Most people whom are homeless who have a mental illness DO NOT HAVE A MAJOR MENTAL ILLNESS.
They are personality disordered- and there is little if any treatment for personality disorders. They also are the highest users of Emergency Dept
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
So, @Hugh Jass, would you say then that their mental illness may be a cause of their homelessness?
Hugh Jass
New Member
Sometimes-
In untreated or treatment resistant schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and schizo-affective disorder. Yes, it could be the cause of them being homeless. But I would ask why it's untreated. Did the individual refuse treatment as is their right?
Homelessness is most often related to personality disorders, specifically, anti-social personality disorder. It's in the dsm 5, but, there is no treatment for it. And 99% of the people with anti-social personality disorder use big time substances which exacerbates their aggresive nature. And so, referring someone to a boarding home (where most mentally ill reside) when they have had significant charges in the past (sexual assault, assault with weapons, overcoming resitance by choking etc..) does not make them candidates to reside with other vulnerable people. There's debate in Psychiatry whether or not personality disorders should even be in the dsm. In the case of people with major mental illness (schizophrenia schizo-affective and bipolar) they also have a very high percentage of drug use. Making them unpredictable and very difficult to house as they often prey on the more vulnerable residents. At any given time that more than 10 % of single mental health units are inoperable due to the fact that residents have destroyed them and they are being repaired. Again, I know people think that if we just offered them treatment they would accept, but, that's often not the case. I have spent my career chasing people down who are ill whom don't want treatment. I have shown up to provide treatment to clients in mental health units who have literally refused to open the door to receive services, which eventually leads to them becoming very ill and thus unable to maintain the unit. The idea that services aren't available is somewhat true, but the wait times are generated by clients that are usually not appropriate for the service or housing but refuse to accept help. If you want the mentally ill to be treated and housed, the laws have to change to favor that. If someone is so unwell and placed on a Form 1 (meaning they have to go to a hospital as they may be a danger to themselves or others). They are only required to stay in hospital (if deemed a safety concern) for 72 hours. If they are still a safety concern, they can be held for upto 14 days on a form 3. BUT they do not have to accept medication or treatment while on either of these forms and furthermore, even if they did, 2 weeks of meds does not make an impact on them if they have been ill for sometime. Also they would have to continue treatment to maintain any gains they achieved. which, they usually do not.
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droyces
Active Member
I have a question about homelessness. Recently while sitting in the food court at Yonge/Dundas square there was a group of young people listening to a guy talk about being homeless. From what I heard he seemed to preparing them for life on the street. Covering everything from selling stolen bikes to getting money for delivering heroin to prostituting themselves. I kept going back in my mind as to whether this was some Ryerson sociology experiment where students are asked to experience life on the street for a short time to people who are actually going to live on the street. He mentioned how you can use the showers in the beaches come summer time but that it doesn't help this time of year. He mentioned busking. He covered a wide range of topics but they are were all said as "you" rather than a third party living this life. Anyone know what this might have been about? Thanks.