[lead82]

Best way to fund TTC and transit expansion in the GTAH is to toll all the highway onramps a flat $3 fee per entry each weekday, free on weekends.

Plus, add 5c transit fee on top of current gas tax for transit to help pay for road maintenance and transit improvement.

This should generate enough revenue to pay for operating and maintenance costs.

 

[newuser2k9]

I think the property tax should be slightly revised towards the edge of the city. It's a known fact that it costs the TTC money to cover the routes near city limits, and we should let the ones who use them foot the bill.

 

[Darwinkgo]

I think the property tax should be slightly revised towards the edge of the city. It's a known fact that it costs the TTC money to cover the routes near city limits, and we should let the ones who use them foot the bill.

Well, same thing could be done with a zone system for transit if what we are worrying about is operational cost. You could also get rid of transfers, converting more work day only commuters to more expensive metropasses.

Perhaps a fair way to do what you want with the tax system would be a specialized assessment of each garage parking spot and per square foot of driveway (or just upping the car registration levy).

 

[newuser2k9]

Well, same thing could be done with a zone system for transit if what we are worrying about is operational cost. You could also get rid of transfers, converting more work day only commuters to more expensive metropasses.

Perhaps a fair way to do what you want with the tax system would be a specialized assessment of each garage parking spot and per square foot of driveway (or just upping the car registration levy).

That could work, but one has to consider ways that not only fund the TTC, but promote ridership too. Also there needs to be some rectifying between the cost to provide the service vs. actual revenues. Having an extensive network of bus routes is great but not when some of them are operating at 1/4 capacity. Those who forgo public transit when the TTC pays the highest cost to reach them should have to pay.

 

[doady]

Hmm.. tolls are a good idea. The city does own two expressways, why not toll them?

I think the property tax should be slightly revised towards the edge of the city. It's a known fact that it costs the TTC money to cover the routes near city limits, and we should let the ones who use them foot the bill.

Cost recovery of TTC routes downtown are practically the same as the cost recovery of routes at the edges.

 

[newuser2k9]

Hmm.. tolls are a good idea. The city does own two expressways, why not toll them?



Cost recovery of TTC routes downtown are practically the same as the cost recovery of routes at the edges.

Maybe similar modes. I was under the impression that the cost of bus routes per capita were a fair bit higher than subway or streetcar, mostly due to economies of scale.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Maybe similar modes. I was under the impression that the cost of bus routes per capita were a fair bit higher than subway or streetcar, mostly due to economies of scale.

Doesn't mean people in the older part of the city don't have buses in addition to the subway and streetcar. Old Toronto has plenty of bus routes. Plus, what about someone that owns a condo at North York Centre, are you going to ask them if they take the bus, drive, or take the subway to work and tax them depending on the mode?

It would be much easier to either put in differential fares and or a small fuel tax, perhaps over the entire region much like Translink in Greater Vancouver.

 

[rbt]

Maybe similar modes. I was under the impression that the cost of bus routes per capita were a fair bit higher than subway or streetcar, mostly due to economies of scale.

I cannot find the document which detailed cost recover on a per route basis on the TTC website anymore. Pretty sure it was under Transit Planning.


The first thing to realize is these things are equation based. Changing the equation radically changes the results. It is revenue splitting. If you use 2 modes, the fare is split across them. Splits can be done in many ways; distance, time, even, percent based on the cost to provide service, weighted to comfort of the ride (likely hood you took transit because that service was available), etc. Lies and statistics and all that.

I also wondered if the document we are used to seeing included capital expenditures as it seemed to reflect the rates that are charged to other municipalities for contracted service.


Second, we never see a direct comparison of Subway and Streetcar/Bus services. We make assumptions about subway cost recovery based on the streetcar/bus numbers but the TTC doesn't present them in the same light.

If the Streetcar/bus numbers do include capital, it is possible the subway is doing much worse. Bear in mind, Gardiner has cost billions too! Transit systems are a lost leader for boosting property/income tax.


Third, removing any part of the system would result in cannibalizing the ridership and any economies of scale for the others. You cannot remove the bus network without the subway costs per passenger going through the roof. Likewise, removing the subway would add huge costs.

We know TTC is expecting about a $16M loss per year from the addition of the Spadina line, and that accounts for savings from replacing the bus services and ridership growth.


In short, I don't think anybody including the TTC could give realistic numbers for cost recovery for any given service as it is nearly impossible to create a reasonable equation (see point #1) to split the fare with.

Second, measuring operating costs without consideration for capital is really dumb and results in spending $1B for a $10M per year improvement on operating expenses.

 

[newuser2k9]

Doesn't mean people in the older part of the city don't have buses in addition to the subway and streetcar. Old Toronto has plenty of bus routes. Plus, what about someone that owns a condo at North York Centre, are you going to ask them if they take the bus, drive, or take the subway to work and tax them depending on the mode?

It would be much easier to either put in differential fares and or a small fuel tax, perhaps over the entire region much like Translink in Greater Vancouver.

The problem with this is that you end up making public transit look even more unattractive to someone outside the core. If the costs of TTC ridership go up, what's the advantage of having a longer commute?

I cannot find the document which detailed cost recover on a per route basis on the TTC website anymore. Pretty sure it was under Transit Planning.


The first thing to realize is these things are equation based. Changing the equation radically changes the results. It is revenue splitting. If you use 2 modes, the fare is split across them. Splits can be done in many ways; distance, time, even, percent based on the cost to provide service, weighted to comfort of the ride (likely hood you took transit because that service was available), etc. Lies and statistics and all that.

I also wondered if the document we are used to seeing included capital expenditures as it seemed to reflect the rates that are charged to other municipalities for contracted service.


Second, we never see a direct comparison of Subway and Streetcar/Bus services. We make assumptions about subway cost recovery based on the streetcar/bus numbers but the TTC doesn't present them in the same light.

If the Streetcar/bus numbers do include capital, it is possible the subway is doing much worse. Bear in mind, Gardiner has cost billions too! Transit systems are a lost leader for boosting property/income tax.


Third, removing any part of the system would result in cannibalizing the ridership and any economies of scale for the others. You cannot remove the bus network without the subway costs per passenger going through the roof. Likewise, removing the subway would add huge costs.

We know TTC is expecting about a $16M loss per year from the addition of the Spadina line, and that accounts for savings from replacing the bus services and ridership growth.


In short, I don't think anybody including the TTC could give realistic numbers for cost recovery for any given service as it is nearly impossible to create a reasonable equation (see point #1) to split the fare with.

Second, measuring operating costs without consideration for capital is really dumb and results in spending $1B for a $10M per year improvement on operating expenses.

All of your statements have some truth to them, but, even lacking a full, up-to-date, unbiased report, are you telling me you believe a bus route with about 25 fares to the driver each way (50 total) would be more profitable than a subway unit with 250 fares divided over around 4 full staff for the same time period? (Assuming one fare covers 1 collector, 2 operators, and a host of support staff divided over the entire line adding up to another person) A subway also does not have to contend with traffic, and the turnover between subway routes is quicker (less time paying for drivers to wait in terminal). All these things have to add up.

 

[rbt]

All of your statements have some truth to them, but, even lacking a full, up-to-date, unbiased report, are you telling me you believe a bus route with about 25 fares to the driver each way (50 total) would be more profitable than a subway unit with 250 fares divided over around 4 full staff for the same time period? (Assuming one fare covers 1 collector, 2 operators, and a host of support staff divided over the entire line adding up to another person) A subway also does not have to contend with traffic, and the turnover between subway routes is quicker (less time paying for drivers to wait in terminal). All these things have to add up.

"More profit" implies that there is a profit. It has been over 50 years since the TTC made an overall profit.

It is entirely possible that the cost of utilities, cleaning, etc. will make operating a subway far more expensive.

Aside from that, you've missed dozens of hidden labourers for track/tunnel/station maintenance. Street maintenance for the bus is externalized to the Works department and is not a cost incurred by the TTC budget. Externalized costs immediately should raise red flags with any kind of overall budget comparisons as you now need to include a portion of the Works department budget to get the true cost to the city.

The heavily used bus portions of the road do require more maintenance and stronger road base than the other portions.


Anyway, a strict comparison of scenario you laid out doesn't even need to consider manpower to determine the winner.

50 trips by bus:
$650,000 to buy the bus divided by 50 = $13,000 per trip

and

250 trips by subway:
$2.5B to build a chunk of subway divided by 250 = $10,000,000 per trip


You can hire a lot of people to drive that bus trip for $10Million.

 

[newuser2k9]

"More profit" implies that there is a profit. It has been over 50 years since the TTC made an overall profit.

It is entirely possible that the cost of utilities, cleaning, etc. will make operating a subway far more expensive.

Aside from that, you've missed dozens of hidden labourers for track/tunnel/station maintenance. Street maintenance for the bus is externalized to the Works department and is not a cost incurred by the TTC budget. Externalized costs immediately should raise red flags with any kind of overall budget comparisons as you now need to include a portion of the Works department budget to get the true cost to the city.

The heavily used bus portions of the road do require more maintenance and stronger road base than the other portions.


Anyway, a strict comparison of scenario you laid out doesn't even need to consider manpower to determine the winner.

50 trips by bus:
$650,000 to buy the bus divided by 50 = $13,000 per trip

and

250 trips by subway:
$2.5B to build a chunk of subway divided by 250 = $10,000,000 per trip


You can hire a lot of people to drive that bus trip for $10Million.

Yeah, that works.... if we were talking about new construction. Day to day services are another question. You would know that most subway construction would be subsidised, like Transit City, right? Except for actually hiring new drivers, the costs are close to diddily squat. And, besides, if we were going to treat it like that, we should look at the amount of riders over 200 years vs the cost of each (many more buses have to be replaced than trains, let alone subway tunnels).

 

[doady]

Maybe similar modes. I was under the impression that the cost of bus routes per capita were a fair bit higher than subway or streetcar, mostly due to economies of scale.

In Toronto, the cost recovery of bus and streetcar routes are basically the same. Unfortunately the TTC does not publish that info anymore (which make me suspicious), but they still publish ridership and total cost so we can calculate cost per rider of any route ourselves:

[B]Route		Riders	Cost	Cost Per Rider[/B]
[COLOR="Navy"]29 Dufferin	43,600	$49,300	$1.13
25 Don Mills	40,600	$47,000	$1.16[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]509/510 Spadina	48,000	$59,000	$1.23[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]36 Finch W	42,600	$54,900	$1.29
35 Jane		39,000	$51,500	$1.32
34 Eglinton W	41,100	$57,300	$1.39[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]505 Dundas	35,200	$50,400	$1.43[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]54 Lawrence E	33,800	$52,800	$1.56[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]512 St Clair	31,000	$50,200	$1.62[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]39/139 Finch E	44,600	$74,000	$1.66[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]504/508 King	53,100	$96,000	$1.81
506 Carlton	41,200	$75,400	$1.83
501 Queen	43,500	$87,500	$2.01[/COLOR]

 

[nfitz]

If you were were to look at all the routes, there are some that cheaper than that. 22 Coxwell for example with 7,100 passengers/day and $6,600 a day has a $0.93 cost per rider.

 

[Whoaccio]

Why did the TTC stop publishing various route cost and performance statistics? I'm sure they have the figures internally, and posting them online wouldn't take more than a few minutes. Did they give a reason?

 

[nfitz]

They still publish the performance and cost information every year or two, as referenced above.