[OneCity]

Staying away from reality. If Scarborough was an island with no connections to Torontos core infrastructure(s) required then an effective local network could look like this:

• North-South BRT along Victoria Park, Kennedy Rd, Markham Rd, and Morningside Ave
• East-West BRT along Kingston Rd., Lawrence, Eglinton, Ellesmere, Sheppard and Finch.
• GO RER

UTSC, Centennial college (multiple campuses),
Toronto Zoo, Rouge NP (multiple entrances), Guildwood, Bluffers Park,
Scarborough General hospital, Centenary hospital,
SCC, Agincourt, Malvern, Priority hoods' around Scarborough Village, Cederbrae, Kingston-Galloway-Morningside all hit with equal and accessible rapid transit.

 

[pstogios]

Staying away from reality. If Scarborough was an island with no connections to Torontos core infrastructure(s) required then an effective local network could look like this:

• North-South BRT along Victoria Park, Kennedy Rd, Markham Rd, and Morningside Ave
• East-West BRT along Kingston Rd., Lawrence, Eglinton, Ellesmere, Sheppard and Finch.
• GO RER

But what about those transfers necessary to change directions in your BRT network?

You must be part of the downtown elite media.

 

[mdrejhon]

I see a series of other new useless "fantasy" threads coming,...
If North York was De-Amalgamated, what would its own transit system look like?
If Etobicoke was De-Amalgamated, what would its own transit system look like?
If York was De-Amalgamated, what would its own transit system look like?
If East York was De-Amalgamated, what would its own transit system look like?
If Toronto (core) was De-Amalgamated, what would its own transit system look like?

Quickly followed by other more useless "fantasy" threads,....
If Mississauga was Amalgamated, what would its/our transit system look like?
If Brampton was Amalgamated, what would its/our transit system look like?
If Vaughan was Amalgamated, what would its/our transit system look like?
If Richmond Hill was Amalgamated, what would its/our transit system look like?
If Markham was Amalgamated, what would its/our transit system look like?
If Pickering-Ajax was Amalgamated, what would its/our transit system look like?

Don't forget Hamilton-Wentworth versus today's almagamated Hamilton, too.

I promise not to start that thread if none of the above exists. Ha.

 

[ShonTron]

I don't see a case for keeping this thread open.

1. There's a fantasy map thread for this kind of silly speculation and map making
2. Scarborough, before amalgamation, was served by the TTC, and the map looked almost the same as it does today, with the only significant changes being new service to Morningside Heights and a few new express routes.
3. The rest of the bickering here also has a thread - the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I don't see a case for keeping this thread open.

1. There's a fantasy map thread for this kind of silly speculation and map making
2. Scarborough, before amalgamation, was served by the TTC, and the map looked almost the same as it does today, with the only significant changes being new service to Morningside Heights and a few new express routes.
3. The rest of the bickering here also has a thread - the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension.

I think the original point of this thread is to have a fantasy scenario where the City of Scarborough had its own transit system, the Scarborough Transit Commision or Scarborough Transit, which developed independently from the City of Toronto and the surrounding cities/boroughs. The TTC would not have Bloor-Danforth Line past Victoria Park, which will become what Kennedy Station is now, but with 2 separate bus terminals (no fare integration) and Sheppard Line might actually have been built to Victoria Park.

The transit of SCT (Scarborough Transit) would probably be LRTs on Victoria Park, Morningside, and Eglinton/Kingston. Subways on Sheppard, McCowan, and connection to Victoria Park Station. Then BRTs on the rest of the Arterials.

This is just my idea of how the City of Scarborough and SCR would develop if it was part of neither Toronto nor the TTC.

 

[sixrings]

Next up, what will transit on the moon look like

 

[Rainforest]

But what about those transfers necessary to change directions in your BRT network?

You must be part of the downtown elite media.

Go and draw a transit system that avoids transfers when any change in direction occurs.

 

[Rainforest]

Next up, what will transit on the moon look like

Don't worry, pstogios is drawing one.

 

[pstogios]

Go and draw a transit system that avoids transfers when any change in direction occurs.

Was this clearly sarcastic comment directed to you?

Read OneCity’s diatribes throughout the Debate the SSE thread. He requires a transit system to lack transfers, otherwise it means the downtown media elites hate Scarborough.

 

[pstogios]

Don't worry, pstogios is drawing one.

Was my earlier comment directed to you?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I think the original point of this thread is to have a fantasy scenario where the City of Scarborough had its own transit system, the Scarborough Transit Commision or Scarborough Transit, which developed independently from the City of Toronto and the surrounding cities/boroughs. The TTC would not have Bloor-Danforth Line past Victoria Park, which will become what Kennedy Station is now, but with 2 separate bus terminals (no fare integration) and Sheppard Line might actually have been built to Victoria Park.

The transit of SCT (Scarborough Transit) would probably be LRTs on Victoria Park, Morningside, and Eglinton/Kingston. Subways on Sheppard, McCowan, and connection to Victoria Park Station. Then BRTs on the rest of the Arterials.

This is just my idea of how the City of Scarborough and SCR would develop if it was part of neither Toronto nor the TTC.

Toronto's policy on Subway extension seems to be NOT to build it to City boundary - that would only subsidize 905-ers,... (Spadina subway extension was Provincial and extremely political).


The reality is while Scarborough makes up 1/3 of Toronto's land mass,... most Torontians (outside of Scarborough) would be better off if Scarborough actually de-amalgamate!
- Scarborough is mostly low density houses which are costly to service VS high density condo towers which generate much more property tax revenue for City per land area (that's why City of Toronto and every 905 hick-town is doing intensification)
- Higher demographic of non-English speaking population is more costly to service
- Scarborough is mainly priority, lower and middle income bracket that contribute lower to City revenue stream (property tax)
Property tax revenue from most Torontonians (especially higher density area of Toronto outside of Scarborough) are likely subsidizing high cost of all the City services demanded by Scarborough!

The original Bloor-Danforth subway terminated at Woodbine; the main reason for it's extension eastward past VictoriaPark (boundary with Scarborough) along with Scarborough RT was Metropolitan Toronto's desire to connect all the borough's City Halls (City Centres). Thus, without Toronto, Scarborough likely wouldn't have any subway station or LT line.

A comparison of Scarborough with other non-Toronto GTA 905 municipalities, in terms of density, built form, land use, income level (city's property tax revenue), etc,... would show Scarborough is closer to Pickering-Ajax & Brampton than RichmondHill, Markham, Mississauga and Vaughan. Thus, one would expect the transit system of a de-amalgamated Scarborough would be able to afford would be similar to those of Pickering-Ajax & Brampton,... only local bus service with infrequent service. Any bus service cross border would be GO-bus service or local municipality paying (subsidizing) TTC for TTC bus route going a few km east of Victoria Park Ave into Scarberia.

The construction of transportation infrastructures (subways lines, LRT lines, Bus-RT lines) are generally heavily subsidized by the government of Ontario and is extremely political; since Scarborough tend to vote for all 3 parties,... good luck to de-amalgamated Scarborough convincing the Ontario government in power to finance any of these higher level of transit.

 

[Rainforest]

Was this clearly sarcastic comment directed to you?

Read OneCity’s diatribes throughout the Debate the SSE thread. He requires a transit system to lack transfers, otherwise it means the downtown media elites hate Scarborough.

I am free to respond to any comments. I would be more tolerant to your "sarcastic" comments, even if they are not of particularly good taste, if they at least came in addition to meaningful / technical contributions, not instead of.

 

[Rainforest]

The reality is while Scarborough makes up 1/3 of Toronto's land mass,... most Torontians (outside of Scarborough) would be better off if Scarborough actually de-amalgamate!

That's possibly true, but the amalgamation was dictated by the provincial government. It's not like the Scarberians imposed themselves on the rest of the city.

- Scarborough is mostly low density houses which are costly to service VS high density condo towers which generate much more property tax revenue for City per land area (that's why City of Toronto and every 905 hick-town is doing intensification)

The density in Scarborough is much lower than in downtown, but is comparable to North York or Etobicoke.

- Higher demographic of non-English speaking population is more costly to service

That's not obvious at all. ESL courses should cost some, but on the other hand, recent immigrants are often not aware of other public benefits that they are eligible for, and hence do not apply, unlike the more established folks.

- Scarborough is mainly priority, lower and middle income bracket that contribute lower to City revenue stream (property tax)
Property tax revenue from most Torontonians (especially higher density area of Toronto outside of Scarborough) are likely subsidizing high cost of all the City services demanded by Scarborough!

That's true in some way, but not as clear-cut as you imply:
- A large portion of property tax is paid by a small number of very rich individuals, plus rich corporations. Ordinary folks, even those who reside in high-density areas, often pay as little as suburban folks, while they use the city's resources more than suburban folks because they have better access.
- A lot of city events are held in downtown and mainly benefit the downtown businesses, while being paid for using revenues collected in the whole city.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Toronto's policy on Subway extension seems to be NOT to build it to City boundary - that would only subsidize 905-ers,... (Spadina subway extension was Provincial and extremely political).


The reality is while Scarborough makes up 1/3 of Toronto's land mass,... most Torontians (outside of Scarborough) would be better off if Scarborough actually de-amalgamate!
- Scarborough is mostly low density houses which are costly to service VS high density condo towers which generate much more property tax revenue for City per land area (that's why City of Toronto and every 905 hick-town is doing intensification)
- Higher demographic of non-English speaking population is more costly to service
- Scarborough is mainly priority, lower and middle income bracket that contribute lower to City revenue stream (property tax)
Property tax revenue from most Torontonians (especially higher density area of Toronto outside of Scarborough) are likely subsidizing high cost of all the City services demanded by Scarborough!

The original Bloor-Danforth subway terminated at Woodbine; the main reason for it's extension eastward past VictoriaPark (boundary with Scarborough) along with Scarborough RT was Metropolitan Toronto's desire to connect all the borough's City Halls (City Centres). Thus, without Toronto, Scarborough likely wouldn't have any subway station or LT line.

A comparison of Scarborough with other non-Toronto GTA 905 municipalities, in terms of density, built form, land use, income level (city's property tax revenue), etc,... would show Scarborough is closer to Pickering-Ajax & Brampton than RichmondHill, Markham, Mississauga and Vaughan. Thus, one would expect the transit system of a de-amalgamated Scarborough would be able to afford would be similar to those of Pickering-Ajax & Brampton,... only local bus service with infrequent service. Any bus service cross border would be GO-bus service or local municipality paying (subsidizing) TTC for TTC bus route going a few km east of Victoria Park Ave into Scarberia.

The construction of transportation infrastructures (subways lines, LRT lines, Bus-RT lines) are generally heavily subsidized by the government of Ontario and is extremely political; since Scarborough tend to vote for all 3 parties,... good luck to de-amalgamated Scarborough convincing the Ontario government in power to finance any of these higher level of transit.

This make a lot of sense, and I now see how Scarborough is more comparable to Pickering than Markham if it was it's own City.

 

[44 North]

A comparison of Scarborough with other non-Toronto GTA 905 municipalities, in terms of density, built form, land use, income level (city's property tax revenue), etc,... would show Scarborough is closer to Pickering-Ajax & Brampton than RichmondHill, Markham, Mississauga and Vaughan. Thus, one would expect the transit system of a de-amalgamated Scarborough would be able to afford would be similar to those of Pickering-Ajax & Brampton,... only local bus service with infrequent service. Any bus service cross border would be GO-bus service or local municipality paying (subsidizing) TTC for TTC bus route going a few km east of Victoria Park Ave into Scarberia.

I dunno, with regards to built form and land use Scarborough has a significant amount of high-density nodes. This is something Toronto was doing decades ago so is seen also in Etobicoke, York, EY, NY. None of the cities you mention have anything on the scale of Scarb, with the exception of maybe Bramlea in Brampton (but that's just a single area for a city of +0.5M). And certainly not anywhere in York Region.