[Tacoma]

Hey guys!
Yesterday I met a true Toronto hater at a bar I was at. It's nothing new to meet someone like that of course but what was new to me was that his arguments against the city were so illogical. It blew my mind!
I found the whole conversation extremely humorous so I thought I would share it here and ask if anyone here ever met someone that said ridiculous things such as these because I'd love to read them for a laugh.

So his complaints were that Toronto isn't as good as New York (where he wants to move to) because

1. people in Toronto live in condos
2. it's too expensive in Toronto
3. people get pushed out of the core that are poor

I couldn't keep a straight face. I can't wait until he moves to NYC to live in a cheap, large house with all the other poor people in central Manhattan.

Anyone heard any similarly insane arguments against our great city?

Where's the hate here? I only see someone who's opinion that you disagree with but his arguments are, IMHO, far from insane.

In its own context, I cannot disagree that more and more people in Toronto are living in condos these days, that Toronto is an expensive place to live, and some people are moving out to the suburbs where you can get same size homes at lower cost. Housing prices are generally higher in NY, especially in Manhattan. But if you take Brooklyn for example, the median home prices are around half million which isn't a far cry from Toronto prices. And as has been already stated above, other costs such as food, liquor, electronics, furniture, auto, and most everything, are actually cheaper down there, then the gap closes even further, if it exists at all.

Furthermore, I dont' know what he does for al living but professional or middle/senior management jobs, especially in finance, generally pay more in NYC than in Toronto and considering lower income tax rates down there and the fact that your mortgage interest is a deductable expense as well, then it becomes arguable which is better from a cost of living perspective.

 

[Hipster Duck]

There's a difference between baseless critisisms and legitimate critisisms. People had perfectly good reasons for not liking Houston or Phoenix.

Okay, let's hear them. I am really dying to know what your perfectly good reason is for hating Houston or Phoenix that doesn't cast each cities' 4 or 5 million residents as some sweeping stereotype.

And either way, freedom of opinion. Even if it doesn't quite add up. No one needs to be silenced.

If that's the case, you shouldn't get offended by illogical Toronto haters. Your hatred for Houston and Phoenix is nothing but illogical.

 

[ladyscraper]

Where's the hate here.

I left out most of the hater-tastic things he said like "Toronto is a piece of crap" and "people in Toronto have no style or artistic vision" and instead I just focused on his reasons for wanting to move to New York which I thought (and still think) are illogical.

Anyways, my point wasn't that Toronto doesn't have those problems.. it was that he was comparing it to a place that has those same problems but amplified. My wife just read your post and started laughing and said that it's insane that anyone is even trying to argue that New York isn't way more expensive than Toronto. She had to live there for 25 years and says that she had to struggle to live in parts of town that she didn't like and kept getting pushed out as opposed to living a good life on her own terms in a neighborhood of her choosing here in Toronto.

 

[Cooool]

Okay, let's hear them. I am really dying to know what your perfectly good reason is for hating Houston or Phoenix that doesn't cast each cities' 4 or 5 million residents as some sweeping stereotype.



If that's the case, you shouldn't get offended by illogical Toronto haters. Your hatred for Houston and Phoenix is nothing but illogical.

Houston and Phoenix have endless sprawl and a downtown core that closes down after 5 o clock.

I am not offended by illogical Toronto haters. They are free to express their opinions, despite being ill-informed. And I am free to express my opinions of Sunbelt cities.

 

[Hipster Duck]

^Which is equally uninformed.

Sometimes I make an uninformed, ignorant comment but I usually feel ashamed about it when I get caught. I typically don't want to look like an ignoramus who passes judgments on things I don't know about, but that may just be me.

 

[adma]

I can be a big Toronto hater when I want to be. I think it's disgraceful, Canada has the unique problem of an overutilized public transportation system (unlike the US) and yet the subway is still so embarassingly inefficient. Also, I question how Toronto can be a wealthy city yet look so ugly in some places. Even the run down areas of Manhattan are more aesthetically pleasing. For example, the Lower East Side, in my opinion, looks nicer than Queen West. There's also a big issue of homelessness here.

Though at the same time, them High Line'n Manhattanites would think you're a dumb yokel from the sticks for assuming that nobody would go for Canada Malting...

 

[northstar]

I can be a big Toronto hater when I want to be. I think it's disgraceful, Canada has the unique problem of an overutilized public transportation system (unlike the US) and yet the subway is still so embarassingly inefficient. Also, I question how Toronto can be a wealthy city yet look so ugly in some places.

I can definitely relate to some of those comments.
But over time I've grown attached to this city and now like it "warts and all" as I mention to friends back West.

With respect to illogical Toronto-haters, I've got my share of stories.
I moved here from Saskatchewan back in the 1990's for employment.
Some friends were excited for me and we look forward to visits back and forth between cities.
Others treated me like some sort of pariah.
Back in Saskatchewan one guy at a party even refused to speak with me.
Quote: "I don't understand why you didn't move to Calgary, if not Calgary, then at least Vancouver, but Toronto..."

I take these guys with a grain of salt, as one will find narrow-minded people wherever you go.
Alternatively, I've had to deal with my fair share of "illogical Prairie haters" here in Toronto... but they tend to be in the minority
I mean, why hang around with narrowminded people...

 

[golodhendil]

Even the run down areas of Manhattan are more aesthetically pleasing. For example, the Lower East Side, in my opinion, looks nicer than Queen West.

I wouldn't consider much of LES to be run-down nowadays. If you want run-down, try various parts of Upper Manhattan.

 

[OttoSchloss]

Where's the hate here? I only see someone who's opinion that you disagree with but his arguments are, IMHO, far from insane.

In its own context, I cannot disagree that more and more people in Toronto are living in condos these days, that Toronto is an expensive place to live, and some people are moving out to the suburbs where you can get same size homes at lower cost. Housing prices are generally higher in NY, especially in Manhattan. But if you take Brooklyn for example, the median home prices are around half million which isn't a far cry from Toronto prices. And as has been already stated above, other costs such as food, liquor, electronics, furniture, auto, and most everything, are actually cheaper down there, then the gap closes even further, if it exists at all.

Furthermore, I dont' know what he does for al living but professional or middle/senior management jobs, especially in finance, generally pay more in NYC than in Toronto and considering lower income tax rates down there and the fact that your mortgage interest is a deductable expense as well, then it becomes arguable which is better from a cost of living perspective.

Tax rates in New York City are not especially lower than Toronto tax rates and if you live in Manhattan you get hit with an extra (city) tax as well whether you own property or not. And don't forget that you'll need a minimum of 20% (liquid) to purchase an apt or coop on the island as well. Most people who move to New York do make a lot of money while there but will have very little to show for it after 10 years except an exceptional experience. if you want lower tax rates, you're better off moving to Florida. Having lived in NYC I'd choose it over Toronto any day but certainly not for the cost of living which is significantly higher and certainly not because it's an easier way of life -it's not, it's a daily struggle with some nice payoffs. But in North America as a whole there are very few cities I'd choose over Toronto.

 

[Tacoma]

I left out most of the hater-tastic things he said like "Toronto is a piece of crap" and "people in Toronto have no style or artistic vision" and instead I just focused on his reasons for wanting to move to New York which I thought (and still think) are illogical.

OK, I stand corrected. This guy's a hater!

My wife just read your post and started laughing and said that it's insane that anyone is even trying to argue that New York isn't way more expensive than Toronto. She had to live there for 25 years and says that she had to struggle to live in parts of town that she didn't like and kept getting pushed out as opposed to living a good life on her own terms in a neighborhood of her choosing here in Toronto.

Instead of laughing, please elaborate? My thoughts, very briefly:

A Washington study issued last September looked at tax burdens of several US jurisdictions including NYC. For a hypothetical family of 3 with a combined income of $150K living in NYC, here's the breakdown:

Income tax (all levels): $11,604
Property tax: $3,249
Sales tax: $2,354
Auto: $312
Grand Total: $17,520

I don't have at hand corresponding numbers for a Toronto resident, but lets just look at income and property taxes alone and forget about sales and auto taxes for this discussion for a family earning $150K ($100K for primary earner) from employment and a $500K mortgaged home. By my rough calculations, this Toronto family would be paying about $36K in income taxes and about $4,300 in propery taxes or about $40K in total, before sales and other taxes. This is compared to the above for NYC of $15K for a difference of $25K (also assuming $1CDN=$1US -- and knowing that property taxes must be paid with after income tax dollars, so the difference is actually greater).

So the NYC family will have $135,000 of disposal income vs. only $110,000 for the Toronto family, and we haven't even touched sales taxes where a NYer pays 8.875% (combined state and city) compared to 13% in Ontario. And if you look at other major costs such as buying a car, TV, electronic equipment, gas for your car, etc., it's mostly cheaper down there. Real estate is one of the few exceptions and it's a big one, but, as I said, if you chose Brooklyn for example, then the difference is not that big. And that gap closes even further, if not to 0 or negative, if you consider that the IRS allows mortgage interest rates to be deductible from your income. This is huge, especially at the beginning of a mortgage where your payments are mostly interest.

I'm a finance guy so I can go on and on and we have friends, clients, colleagues who have left Toronto and not one has come back and $$$ is one of the main reasons (the other being better opportunities).

Once again, this is not hate against Toronto as we've chosen to stay for personal reasons and love it here in Toronto. But just because your wife's laughing because she's doing better here, doesn't make it so for everyone.

 

[CDL.TO]

A Washington study issued last September looked at tax burdens of several US jurisdictions including NYC. For a hypothetical family of 3 with a combined income of $150K living in NYC, here's the breakdown:

Income tax (all levels): $11,604

I'm basing this on absolutely nothing but ignorance of the details, but it's shocking to hear that a $150K household in NYC would only pay $11,604 in income taxes (7.7%). Is this really true?

Popping $150K income for a married couple into a couple US income tax calculators on the internet gives me income tax rates around 23%-28%.

 

[Hank]

Yeah there's no way that a $150K household in the states is only paying just over $10,000 in income tax. The lowest US tax bracket (on about the first $10,000 of income) is 10%, so I can't see how the total tax paid for someone earning $100K is under that amount.

 

[ladyscraper]

Once again, this is not hate against Toronto as we've chosen to stay for personal reasons and love it here in Toronto. But just because your wife's laughing because she's doing better here, doesn't make it so for everyone.

I want to make it clear that she wasn't laughing at you for having a different opinion but more at the idea that it's cheaper in New York in general. You are right that it may be different for everyone as she was renting in both cities and not buying property so maybe that could play a part?
In her experience though she says that it costs 2 to 3 times as much in rent for places that aren't as good as the cheaper place in Toronto. I would visit her very often and I agree that her places defintiely were not as good or as central as what we have here even though they costed much more than here.

 

[Cooool]

I wouldn't consider much of LES to be run-down nowadays. If you want run-down, try various parts of Upper Manhattan.

I know, but it is comparable to Queen West. Not to mention, it did have a "gritty" feel to it.

Upper Manhattan is not a trendy area and I would think most people avoid it.

 

[golodhendil]

Upper Manhattan is not a trendy area and I would think most people avoid it.

If you are student, family member or visitor to Columbia, you'd probably have a hard time avoiding Upper Manhattan. Or if you want to visit the Cloisters. And while I don't have the numbers, I'm pretty sure a substantial number of people will actually visit Harlem for its culture scene.
More to the point. The OP is about someone comparing living in NYC vs. Toronto. That's not about which "trendy" area looks more or less "run-down" (not that I necessarily agree with your premise that QW looks more run-down than LES), it's about the reality of the people who live there everyday. And if you feel that "wealthy" Toronto should be ashamed of its "run-down" areas, then what should one feel about NYC, arguably the premier city of the world, with the neighbourhoods I brought up? And that was only Manhattan; what of South Bronx, East New York, etc?