[JasonParis]

Admittedly, there are a few things not to like about Toronto. In fact, some days there are many things not to like about Toronto. However, out-of-towners never bring-up any one of them. I'd actually be pleasantly surprised if they would! They instead always go on about things that simply aren't true, particuarly with regards to crime. Moreover, I've often found that the misunderstandings (and hatred) of Toronto start right inside the inner 905 which I always find as strange, at best. I'm not sure if other Canadian metros have such attitudes toward their central city. I think most in the 450 have quite a fondness for the Island of Montreal, while most in our 905 are likely ambivalent or negative (to Toronto proper).

BTW, does anyone know the history of the "centre of the universe" term? I've always found it curious too as I don't find Torontonions particularly behaving in such a way either, yet we get accused of it all the time. Moreover, some will accuse us of "thinking its New York, but it's not. They think they are the centre of the universe!" Aren't those two terms in contention?

 

[MisterF]

If Toronto is overwhelmingly slightly shabby, is that better or worse than having a few pockets of nice stuff surrounded by endless miles of city that looks like it's been ravaged by zombies and nuclear fallout?

Toronto is the Lesotho of cities...we don't have the highest highs, but our low points are higher than everyone else's.

It might also have something to do with the lack of extremes (I use that term very very loosely here) in socioeconomic status and political power - that a slightly degraded public realm for everyone is a more desirable outcome than any political structure that will allow for extremes.

AoD

I don't think it has to be one or the other - I suspect that feeling comes from seeing U.S. cities, but there are plenty of cities around the world that have a consistently higher public space standard. It's just a matter of priorities.

 

[Eug]

BTW, does anyone know the history of the "centre of the universe" term? I've always found it curious too as I don't find Torontonions particularly behaving in such a way either, yet we get accused of it all the time.

Actually, even though I've lived here for well over a decade, I still do feel that sentiment is at least a little bit justified.

Perhaps one has to have grown up outside Toronto to appreciate that.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

MisterF:

I don't think it has to be one or the other - I suspect that feeling comes from seeing U.S. cities, but there are plenty of cities around the world that have a consistently higher public space standard. It's just a matter of priorities.

Maybe - but consistently higher public space standard across the entire city, no matter the socioeconomic class of the neighbourhood?

It is probably also useful to include 905 municipalities into this as well.

AoD

 

[Dan416]

Having grown up in Mississauga, I kinda understand it to an extent. Downton people think Toronto ends at Bloor (or Steeles). I think Torontonians are just very insular and don't travel within the GTA very much. Whereas 905ers are more likely to know other parts of the 905 as well as downtown.

And in response to Darkstar's comment, I don't find that here in Mississauga. People for the most part love Toronto. And everyone calls downtown Toronto, "Downtown" (not "downtown Toronto") and never referring to "downtown Mississauga". I don't think I've ever experienced any anti-Toronto sentiment. The only (inner) 905 people guilty of that would probably be politicians. Maybe outer 905 people are more anti-Toronto. I don't know. I don't know where this hate for Toronto comes from.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually, the "hate" has more to do with stereotypes instead of attitude of Torontonains - issues like crime, poverty, homelessness, leftish politics - everything that is the opposite of who 905ers think they are. It doesn't necessarily manifest itself in daily lives (other than avoidance of the city, at the most paranoid) but come the time of electing anyone or debates around regional issues and politics, it rears its' ugly head. Think of it as a form of identity politics.

AoD

 

[Dan416]

Actually, the "hate" has more to do with stereotypes instead of attitude of Torontonains - issues like crime, poverty, homelessness, leftish politics - everything that is the opposite of who 905ers think they are. It doesn't necessarily manifest itself in daily lives (other than avoidance of the city, at the most paranoid) but come the time of electing anyone or debates around regional issues and politics, it rears its' ugly head. Think of it as a form of identity politics.

AoD

I don't know many people who actively avoid or are paranoid of Toronto, although I'm sure there's some. But that's not really Toronto-specific. It's probably about the "big city" in general.

 

[adma]

Moreover, Harlem (and increasingly, other parts of Upper Manhattan like west Inwood) is gradually gentrifying, with new condos and developments, and many more NYers are actually moving into those neighbourhoods (which incidentally could very well price the original residents out of them, another problem with the criticisms in the OP that ladyscraper pointed out).

And of course, we mustn't forget similar trends in Brooklyn, even in long-time no-go zones like Bushwick.

However, nothing is uniform: after all, the likes of Brownsville and East New York remain ungentrifiable--sort of like Brooklyn's Rexdale...

 

[urbandreamer]

I would say those that hate Houston probably think all Texans (and southerners) are red necks. Houston is an incredibly lively city...but then having family there helps to understand the culture of the city better, doesn't it? The only thing that truly sucks about Houston is the weather--too humid for my taste.

 

[nfitz]

Having grown up in Mississauga, I kinda understand it to an extent. Downton people think Toronto ends at Bloor (or Steeles). I think Torontonians are just very insular and don't travel within the GTA very much. Whereas 905ers are more likely to know other parts of the 905 as well as downtown.

I don't think it's fair to generalize. Some 905ers travel around the GTA a lot; others don't. Some 416ers travel around town a lot, other's don't. I live south of Bloor, and I spent lots of time driving around 905, particularily Mississauga ... but around most parts (though I can't say I've driven around anything but western Brampton of late); and much of the suburban 416 as well.

 

[urbandreamer]

Let's flip this around: Vancouver is the best city on the planet!

Discuss.

 

[Coltaine79]

Having grown up in Mississauga, I kinda understand it to an extent. Downton people think Toronto ends at Bloor (or Steeles). I think Torontonians are just very insular and don't travel within the GTA very much. Whereas 905ers are more likely to know other parts of the 905 as well as downtown.

I find the downtowner's snobby attitude of hating that-which-is-not-downtown far more annoying than the anti-Toronto attitude of the "RoC". For example, a while back I went on a date with a chick (downtowner) who claimed she was interested in visiting different neighborhoods in Toronto and seeing the local sights, trying the different eateries, etc. I suggested that she should consider visiting Mt. Pleasant & Eglinton and work her way down to Davisville (because I was living in that area at the time and had found many nice places to eat around there). Her response was that she thought it was "too far out there" and would rather stick to places "in Toronto.. like, you know, south of Bloor and stuff!". LOL. ARE YOU SERIOUS??! Good thing there was no second date.

And of course there's no shortage of downtowners who consider anything North of the 401, East of the DVP/Woodbine, and West of... Royal York? - to be a complete and total WASTELAND, devoid of life. And people like Christopher Hume encourage this belief.

Let's flip this around: Vancouver is the best city on the planet!

I lived there prior to 1988 and have not returned since. From what I've heard - from other people who've visited or lived there recently - perhaps I shouldn't. Otherwise my innocent 80s-era memories of Vancouver "pre-condo sprawl" will be violated.

Actually, watching the Olympics on TV, it seemed to me that Concord or Pinnacle must have gotten a fair bit of free advertising; many of the video clips seemed to have a building by one of those developers looming ominously in the background. Well, maybe not Pinnacle. Not too familiar with who's
building in Van City these days.

 

[urbandreamer]

Hilarious re: Toronto girl who wouldn't visit other hoods. What a bore! Mt Pleasant and Bayview are interesting places to visit, Mt Pleasant having, for example, the best gelato joint in town--il gelatiere, with Bayview's Hollywood Gelato a distant second. As well, Sunday mornings at Thorbors is a jolly fine way to spend a summer morning! Another great place to visit on a Sunday morning, although brunch choices suck--downtown/old Oakville. It's very nice there.

Re: your Vancouver experience. My point exactly. (Ignorance.) Vancouver pre-88 is like living in Toronto pre-1965.

 

[nfitz]

Let's flip this around: Vancouver is the best city on the planet!

Discuss.

Hmm ... was there recently. The one thing that stuck out for me were the sidewalks; literally. Despite concrete lasting a lot longer there (there's a few places, you can see date stamps on the concrete back to WWI), the sidewalks are often atrocious, being very uneven. In addition, I was surprised by how many locations where there was a step at the intersection, instead of a ramp (though this does seem to have improved over the years), and quite major roads (and many minor) with no sidewalks at all. At the same time, pedestrian use seemed to be higher than here. There's no way in Toronto that such uneven sidewalks wouldn't have been fixed years ago (though in Vancouver, they often just seem to put a bit of asphalt down at a join, rather than fixing properly). What's surprising is that with the salt and winters here, the sidewalks require much more maintenance, you'd think that you could maintain sidewalks to the same standard as in Toronto, for a lot less money. I literally tripped over them a couple of times in a week ... though the poor street lighting also played into this.

And the transit ... I really don't think that buses should be stuffed beyond capacity in off-peak times. And the Canada Line? There are major stations at major intersections that have only a single exit ... despite the stations being in the centre of the street ... it's mind-boggling that they didn't provide an entrance at the other side given the lack of ticket barriers. And speaking of tickets, don't try and buy a book of tickets in a Skytrain station ... they don't sell them; you have to find a store that sells tickets; what ... a vending machine would kill them?

The Olympics were over when I was there ... but I was near where they had the flame on one occasion. It was hard to believe, but around the facility with the flame, they had Jersey barriers with chain link fences on them; it looked so cheap. I guess they saved some money ... but it had to be the most tacky thing I'd ever seen! You'd think they'd have at least used some decent looking portable fencing.

 

[urbandreamer]

^Did you enjoy looking at that ugly view? It's hideous. Also, the leaf motif stamped into the c.2000 and newer sidewalks is pretty unoriginal, eh? I agree it's pretty hard to use such new-fangled technology as those self-serve ticket machines they have at every sky train station. And taking the subway to the airport? Not possible in provincial BC!

Finally, yeah that portable fencing was so lame! It like, totally, like depressed me.