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ladyscraper

ladyscraper

man alive
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Hey guys!
Yesterday I met a true Toronto hater at a bar I was at. It's nothing new to meet someone like that of course but what was new to me was that his arguments against the city were so illogical. It blew my mind!
I found the whole conversation extremely humorous so I thought I would share it here and ask if anyone here ever met someone that said ridiculous things such as these because I'd love to read them for a laugh.

So his complaints were that Toronto isn't as good as New York (where he wants to move to) because

1. people in Toronto live in condos
2. it's too expensive in Toronto
3. people get pushed out of the core that are poor

I couldn't keep a straight face. I can't wait until he moves to NYC to live in a cheap, large house with all the other poor people in central Manhattan.

Anyone heard any similarly insane arguments against our great city?
 
kettal said:
did you ask him where he learned that downtown New York housing was affordable?
Click to expand...

He said he had been there so he just knew. I told him my wife moved to Toronto after living in New York City her whole life but he was positive that he knew better than she would.

Basically I don't mind if people have an opinion of Toronto (like if they say they find it boring or something) because that is fair enough to just have a feeling like that. I just can't handle it when people think the grass is always greener everywhere else but really not knowing anything about any other places.

I think it can be damaging for so many people to be negative about the city because I feel like it may lead to less effort being put into making it a great place. I wonder if the media is partly to blame for always trying to convince everyone that absolutely everything in the city is wrong. Although I suppose that is what gets the ratings.
 
Let me be the devil's advocate. First of all, I would agree the guy is nuts if these are the reasons he wants to move to NYC and away from TO. Nevertheless, for what its worth and having lived in Manhattan for over 20 years and still a regular passer-through, taking each of his points in turn:

1. People in Toronto do live in rentals, condos, as well as private houses. People in Manhattan live in rentals, co-ops and private houses. Condos are scarcer than hen's teeth. If you happen to live in a rental that is rent controlled or rent stabilized, and you have lived there for more than 30 years, you may be paying a ridiculously low rent. I have friends with 30 or more years under their belt in the same place and are paying less than $2000 a month for incredibly 3 bedroom apartments. However, your friend is not going to get this break so figure on $4000 a month for a 2 bedroom in a decent location. the recent price decline has led to a few 2 bedroom co-ops selling for less then one million but only very few. So some truth there but not that would benefit him.

2. It's too expensive in Toronto, presumably compared to NYC. I think comparing like with like he is probably right. Once you cover accommodation, the rest can be very cheap. It's no accident that Euros come in plane loads to buy clothes, electronics, etc. Food is cheap, wine is inexpensive, lots of music and theatre is affordable. Lots of very good cheap restaurants. What gives NYC the look of expensive is that the top end here makes TO's "mink mile" look like a Dollar Store. All of this ignores that you are paying $4-5 thousand a month in rent. Again, your interlocutor was not totally wrong

3. People get pushed out of the core that are poor. Yep, happens in Toronto. Happens in NYC too except there are many people who have rented all their life or have owned their co-op for 50 years. Certainly there are many more older retired people of limited means that can continue to live in very nice areas of Manhattan. And if you are poor there is always the south Bronx or Washington Heights which are quite central and have poor people as well, of course, in the projects. Again, your friend was not incorrect but it's not going to help him.

I think not so much a grass is greener thing but rather a "little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
 
ladyscraper said:
Hey guys!
Yesterday I met a true Toronto hater at a bar I was at. It's nothing new to meet someone like that of course but what was new to me was that his arguments against the city were so illogical. It blew my mind!
I found the whole conversation extremely humorous so I thought I would share it here and ask if anyone here ever met someone that said ridiculous things such as these because I'd love to read them for a laugh.

So his complaints were that Toronto isn't as good as New York (where he wants to move to) because

1. people in Toronto live in condos
2. it's too expensive in Toronto
3. people get pushed out of the core that are poor
Click to expand...

#3 is probably a legitimate complaint... though New York probably has similar issues.
 
TO City of Light said:
Let me be the devil's advocate. First of all, I would agree the guy is nuts if these are the reasons he wants to move to NYC and away from TO. Nevertheless, for what its worth and having lived in Manhattan for over 20 years and still a regular passer-through, taking each of his points in turn:

1. People in Toronto do live in rentals, condos, as well as private houses. People in Manhattan live in rentals, co-ops and private houses. Condos are scarcer than hen's teeth. If you happen to live in a rental that is rent controlled or rent stabilized, and you have lived there for more than 30 years, you may be paying a ridiculously low rent. I have friends with 30 or more years under their belt in the same place and are paying less than $2000 a month for incredibly 3 bedroom apartments. However, your friend is not going to get this break so figure on $4000 a month for a 2 bedroom in a decent location. the recent price decline has led to a few 2 bedroom co-ops selling for less then one million but only very few. So some truth there but not that would benefit him.

2. It's too expensive in Toronto, presumably compared to NYC. I think comparing like with like he is probably right. Once you cover accommodation, the rest can be very cheap. It's no accident that Euros come in plane loads to buy clothes, electronics, etc. Food is cheap, wine is inexpensive, lots of music and theatre is affordable. Lots of very good cheap restaurants. What gives NYC the look of expensive is that the top end here makes TO's "mink mile" look like a Dollar Store. All of this ignores that you are paying $4-5 thousand a month in rent. Again, your interlocutor was not totally wrong

3. People get pushed out of the core that are poor. Yep, happens in Toronto. Happens in NYC too except there are many people who have rented all their life or have owned their co-op for 50 years. Certainly there are many more older retired people of limited means that can continue to live in very nice areas of Manhattan. And if you are poor there is always the south Bronx or Washington Heights which are quite central and have poor people as well, of course, in the projects. Again, your friend was not incorrect but it's not going to help him.

I think not so much a grass is greener thing but rather a "little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I am also very familiar with NYC since I used to spend half of my time there until the wife decided to move here. I agree with you that some things are cheaper there. I especially noticed it with alcohol and food items (not necessarily restaurants but definitely groceries).
My wife was working in the Empire State Building so she was living in Manhattan at first to be close to work but I watched her very quickly get pushed out to a bad part of Manhattan, then to Brooklyn, then to a bad part of Brooklyn and finally Astoria. She made a pretty good amount of money there but it just wasn't enough to avoid having to move further away each time.
When she first moved to Toronto and was able to get an apartment right in the Annex which was her very first choice, she was so happy that she couldn't contain herself. She makes half the money here but she feels like she lives a much better life. I guess if she had the rent controlled situation you are talking about then she could have had it better there but she had roommates so whenever they moved, she had to as well.

Anyways you made great points but I feel like they apply more to someone that has already lived there for years and not to this random guy trying to move there for the first time with hardly any money and thinking he would make out like a bandit in some cheap apartment.
 
When I was in Vancouver, just about to finish up a 1-year contract job:

Acquaintance: What are you going to do after this?

Eug: I got a good position in Toronto, so I'm moving there.

Acquaintance: Oh, I'm so sorry! (Said with complete sincerity.)

Eug: :confused:
 
^Oh God, I got the exact same response from someone there when I last visited last summer after I told them I was from Toronto.
I looked at them funny and said something about being happy to be from Toronto and that it's a nicer place than Van City. Shut them right up...guess they weren't used to that sort of retort.
 
Toronto is a great city, but despite its identity as a national city and impressive metropolis, I would expect a greater spirit of urban leadership in terms of, for instance, public spaces and transit. It just doesn't feel like we're doing substantially better in these areas than Vancouver or Montreal.
 
Re: Vancouver. I lived there for a while (88-89) and at the time wasn't even from Toronto, but planned to move here. I was very unkind when I got that kind of reaction, because (for all its virtues, which I acknowledge) I didn't care much for the city and its insular smugness. I had a lot of preplanned retorts, which were unexpected and effective. Vancouverites are very thin skinned - it's almost too easy.

For me, I don't expect that Toronto will be "better" than most cities in any particular area, and for any given area (ie., transit planning), there is likely to be somewhere, a city doing something better. I do feel that because we live in the city day-to-day and aren't exposed to the petty everyday complaints in other cities, it's easy to assume that everything is better somewhere else. It's like my strong beef about armchair internet architecture browsing - from a perusal of internet sites it's easy to get depressed, but if you are actually in the cities and visit the sites in question, more often than not, it's actually quite reassuring.
 
junctionist said:
Toronto is a great city, but despite its identity as a national city and impressive metropolis, I would expect a greater spirit of urban leadership in terms of, for instance, public spaces and transit. It just doesn't feel like we're doing substantially better in these areas than Vancouver or Montreal.
Click to expand...

It is different level of energy between Montreal and Toronto however at least in terms of development. I think Transit City will catapult Toronto way ahead of either of these and other North American cities in terms of transit. But Montreal and Vancouver are both pushing forward on LRTs as well (Even thought Montreal's plan is to build a useless Tourist line through the downtown). But when it comes to public spaces and culture Toronto is starting to make Montreal sweat after a decade of investment.

Overall, I hope that this is race that stays close. If Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal thrive the whole country does. Each city can learn from the other and build on each successes.
 
You'll get the same attitudes from those living in the prairie provinces. (I'm originally from Saskatchewan.)

However, every single friend from the prairies that has come here to visit has liked it here, despite preconceived notions about Toronto. That said, in my limited experience I find the Vancouverites who come here to work have a higher tendency to go back to Vancouver eventually, as compared to those from the prairie provinces, even despite the super high cost of housing in Vancouver.
 
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