News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.5K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 39K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 4.8K     0 

Beltline_B

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
1,340
Reaction score
7,157
A group of us were recently talking about 17th Ave and other strips that have patios, such as Inglewood, Mission, Steven Avenue, etc.
Something we all noticed is that businesses in the +15 seem to be struggling, with many of them closing, and many of them not being very busy, while outdoor patios and brew pubs, etc. are booming and seemingly busy at all times.

Some in the discussion noted that they don’t go into work as often anymore so they’re not spending $15 on lunch in the food courts every day, and instead they’re going out to brew pubs and patios once or twice a week instead. Could this be the catalyst towards seeing a shift in retail out of the +15’s and onto the streets?
 
A group of us were recently talking about 17th Ave and other strips that have patios, such as Inglewood, Mission, Steven Avenue, etc.
Something we all noticed is that businesses in the +15 seem to be struggling, with many of them closing, and many of them not being very busy, while outdoor patios and brew pubs, etc. are booming and seemingly busy at all times.

Some in the discussion noted that they don’t go into work as often anymore so they’re not spending $15 on lunch in the food courts every day, and instead they’re going out to brew pubs and patios once or twice a week instead. Could this be the catalyst towards seeing a shift in retail out of the +15’s and onto the streets?
I'm curious about this too. IMO most office workers downtown have settled into their "new normal"; whatever that is. I'm curious how things change as we move into the cooler months, but I know for myself my wife and I plan on going downtown again after work.
 
In an era where most people use GPS on their phones to navigate everywhere, +15 businesses are hard to find.

I've never gone to a +15 type business (or its equivalent grade-separated indoor pedestrian network in Edmonton, Montreal, Houston, etc) unless I was intimately familiar with the area.
 
I use the +15 now that I'm back to work once or twice a week. I haven't seen many businesses closing, but almost all businesses are less busy than the were before covid. I can't help but wonder how long some of the businesses can hang in there with how slow it's going. Not that I care much, I'm happier seeing entertainment/food dollars go towards the pubs and restos on the streets. I wouldn't normally root for businesses to go under, but I'm not going to lose sleep over fast chains in the +15 closing. It might force some downtown buildings to look at getting businesses onto the streets with patios.
 
I use the +15 now that I'm back to work once or twice a week. I haven't seen many businesses closing, but almost all businesses are less busy than the were before covid. I can't help but wonder how long some of the businesses can hang in there with how slow it's going. Not that I care much, I'm happier seeing entertainment/food dollars go towards the pubs and restos on the streets. I wouldn't normally root for businesses to go under, but I'm not going to lose sleep over fast chains in the +15 closing. It might force some downtown buildings to look at getting businesses onto the streets with patios.
I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't see the building owners re-doing the buildings to have more businesses having outside access, but instead lowering the rents of the +15 tenants in order to keep the tenants, as a building with an empty food court is a very bad look. Maybe in some cases they could look at having some businesses with street access, but even today in the CBD those businesses struggle. Stephen Ave has a good vibe going, but almost all streets and avenues in the CBD have a dismal vibe and aren't worthy of a patio. Too many roads have large stretches of glass or brick walls with no external access, and the biggest problem is the one way freeways that shape the CBD, and kill any street ambience.
 
I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't see the building owners re-doing the buildings to have more businesses having outside access, but instead lowering the rents of the +15 tenants in order to keep the tenants, as a building with an empty food court is a very bad look. Maybe in some cases they could look at having some businesses with street access, but even today in the CBD those businesses struggle. Stephen Ave has a good vibe going, but almost all streets and avenues in the CBD have a dismal vibe and aren't worthy of a patio. Too many roads have large stretches of glass or brick walls with no external access, and the biggest problem is the one way freeways that shape the CBD, and kill any street ambience.

My hope is that the wave of residential conversions will be an opportunity for both more streetfront retail and more residents, and eventually that will create the political will to fix the one way freeways.
 
My hope is that the wave of residential conversions will be an opportunity for both more streetfront retail and more residents, and eventually that will create the political will to fix the one way freeways.
Makes sense. At some point if enough of downtown changes from office to residential there wouldn’t be a need for the one ways.
 
Advice that i gave as a private stakeholder to the Downtown planning team at the City is that they should strongly consider policy that doesn't renew food service or retail (clothing shops, corner stores, etc.) within the Plus-15 in the new LUB update. Retail and restaurant uses belong on the ground level, so people can access them after 4:30-5:00pm when the offices close. Restaurants can't get any after hours business or complete orders for Skip or DoorDash and they could do more productive/flexible if they were on the ground floor.

With plans to entice more residential to the downtown core, i think it is time to revisit why things were located on Plus-15s in the first place. Plus-15s were created to turn all of the Avenues (sans 8th) and many of the streets into one-way (oversized, with many lights) freeways with very limited pedestrian mobility at the street-level to move pedestrian traffic above-grade to reduce conflicts. A 1970-80s transportation engineers dream to move suburban car commuters back to the suburbs as quick as possible surely, but a very different set ideals than what downtown needs today.

If active streets and more importantly residential investment is priority, then the streetscape of downtown needs shops-at-grade and services that are accessible in the times that residents are at home, in walking distance. Street calming, tree-line assignments, eliminating rush hour on-street parking restrictions (which outside the Core would include 10 St NW, Centre Street, 11 Ave, 12 Ave, 9 Ave Main Streets, 17 Ave, maybe others) would be essential to creating an urban fabric anyone would want to live or do business in. Downtown sees limited investment because cars are flying by and can't park in front of businesses at peak hours, and the built form reflects an ideal of getting everyone back to Tuscany or Cranston 2 min faster by speeding through downtown and surrounding main streets.

We have so heavily prioritized efficient vehicular movement from the suburbs to the core at the expense of creating active and human-scaled streets with building frontages and the public realm being valued that no business, let alone residential development will look at downtown as an attractive place to build. Focusing retail on the Plus-15 gave us the excuse to prioritize cars at-grade and the truly lackluster experience on the street for too long, if businesses fronted the streets they would give a fuck what the interface of the building to that street felt like. That is why businesses like Ceili's relocated from the main-floor to a fucking rooftop.

My advice was to eliminate the chicken and the egg problem of does residential investment happen before or after services are there. If the at-grade relationships of the new and existing buildings fronting streets downtown had an inviting business environment at-grade (adequate sidewalk and patio space, tree line assignments and planting, no oversized vehicle lanes and many of them, less-restricted on-street parking), we would naturally see more investment into the downtown from residential builders, and retail tenants would see more ability to capture revenue in the evening.

If you stopped renewing leases outside of the TD Mall or whatever for retail and restaurant uses, and used some of the Downtown incentive thing to improve the public realm and make renovations to desolate, useless office lobbies, all the while improving the public realm, it would show the vision to developers that they are taking for downtown revitilization seriously. As it sits, they keep investing in converting office space to residential in a public realm that is deeply inhospitable to future residents. Calm the streets, provide incentive for good at-grade interactions of currently desolate lobbies and see investment work the way it is supposed to.

Also fuck cars and getting people back to there homes in the suburbs 5-10 min quicker, make downtown streets look like places people actually want to live on, and the street level will thrive and the Plus-15 level retail will die (with the exception of office, office supply, medical office, etc.) a pretty natural death for businesses that operate outside of 8-5.
 
Last edited:
To steal a discussion point from another thread there are numerous places in the core that have improved dramatically over the last 10 years. It's a long game but I think by 2033 the CBD will be very different. There's the Stephen Ave refresh, Olympic Plaza, 8th Street SW (interestingly these three connect), and the residential conversions in the pipeline. I think the last decade was about the Beltline and EV, this next one will be about the CBD and the one after that will (finally) be about the west village.
 
I think Calgary need to also focus on keeping more tourists in the city and having things that attract people from outside of the city in the core. Calgary needs to be more than just the Stampede and the airport for Banff. There have been big improvements since I started working downtown 20 years ago, but we need to keep it going!
 
With plans to entice more residential to the downtown core, i think it is time to revisit why things were located on Plus-15s in the first place. Plus-15s were created to turn all of the Avenues (sans 8th) and many of the streets into one-way (oversized, with many lights) freeways with very limited pedestrian mobility at the street-level to move pedestrian traffic above-grade to reduce conflicts. A 1970-80s transportation engineers dream to move suburban car commuters back to the suburbs as quick as possible surely, but a very different set ideals than what downtown needs today.
Exactly. I won't lie, I like using the +15 on cold or rainy days, and they can keep it, but just move the retail to the street level. With many people working from home and many taking the LRT, it's definitely time to rethink downtown streets. To car drivers in/out of core it might seem like a huge deal changing the roads, but making changes is not going to add a ton of time to the commute...probably an extra 10 to 15 minutes. If the city is serious about reforming downtown, they can't do it unless they deal with the road situation.
 

Back
Top